Bad sessions and tough decisions (LC but also some hands) [Archive]

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xorbie

10-31-2005, 08:25 PM

After running well for a few days, I just played the most brutal session I've had in a while. Brutal because I believe I played pretty well, but continuously ended up choosing the wrong spots, and having cards [censored] me over. Every time I checkraise the turn with a strong draw, it hits on the river only to run into a better draw. Every pair I raise flops an overcard with multiway action, unless I flop a set in which case I get no action. I raise 10 hands in a row and get called except when I get AA. Just bleeding chips away, and then losing stacks to JJ vs QQ HU type situations. Ugly, ugly session.

One of the huge downsides to playing LAG are the huge swings, which can really affect your play. When you are playing LAG and running bad, you will often be faced with a lot of tough decisions, because you end looking weaker than you already are (that is, you are continuously losing at showdown or having to lay down hands, so people play back at you even more than normal). I started to lose some confidence in my play. Enter this hand.
Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

BB ($234.79)
UTG ($248.90)
Hero ($573.40)
CO ($546)
Button ($338)
SB ($392)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $4, Hero raises to $18, 2 folds, SB (poster) calls $16, 1 fold, UTG calls $14.

Flop: ($58) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($58) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $55.1, Hero raises to $110.2, SB folds, UTG calls $55.10.

River: ($278.40) A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $278.40

Results in white below: 
UTG has As Th (one pair, aces).
Hero has Jh Ah (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $278.40. 
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $278.40

I minraised the turn looking for a cheap showdown. This guy had been betting at me a lot when I checked behind on the flop, so I figured to have the best hand. River I miss an easy value bet because I didn't pay attention to stack sizes. After this, I realize I'm playing like a pussy.

So... two hands, two tables.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Hero ($400)
Button ($815.48)
SB ($392.50)
BB ($311.48)
UTG ($330.52)
MP ($374.62)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, MP calls $4, Hero raises to $18, 2 folds, BB calls $14, MP calls $14.

Flop: ($56) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $40, BB raises to $80, MP folds, Hero calls $40.

Turn: ($216) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB calls $213.48 (All-In), Hero calls $213.48.

River: ($642.96) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $642.96

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG ($447.81)
MP ($116.48)
Hero ($432.10)
SB ($775.90)
BB ($363.60)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $2.
2 folds, Hero raises to $14, 1 fold, BB calls $10.

Flop: ($30) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB calls $20.

Turn: ($70) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $50, BB raises to $150, Hero calls $100.

River: ($370) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB calls $179.60 (All-In), Hero calls $179.60.

Final Pot: $729.20

TheWorstPlayer

10-31-2005, 08:37 PM

Sorry about your bad session. Fold the flop in the AA hand. Fold the turn in the 68 hand. Obvious set. Obvious straight. And of course value bet the river in the AJ hand but you know that.

yvesaint

10-31-2005, 08:40 PM

you dont know a bad session until you lose a 4xbuy-in stack in one hand (2nd best hands hurt.... hard)

AA hand, i think you almost always see set/2-pair here, probably TT. how aggro have you been? how aggro is BB? do you think youd see AT-JT here at all? i dont really see much you actually beat, although, now come to think of it, KK-JJ is a possibility (would he trap or re-raise those hands pre-flop?)

last hand ... still trying to wrap my head around it

xorbie

10-31-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you dont know a bad session until you lose a 4xbuy-in stack in one hand (2nd best hands hurt.... hard)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've lost $600 in one hand before, at a $200 buy in table. No more, fortunatly. Second nut straight vs. nut straight.

[ QUOTE ]
AA hand, i think you almost always see set/2-pair here, probably TT. how aggro have you been? how aggro is BB? do you think youd see AT-JT here at all? i dont really see much you actually beat, although, now come to think of it, KK-JJ is a possibility (would he trap or re-raise those hands pre-flop?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been at the table 30 hands, raised 8. I've been folding postflop almost always cuz I can't hit [censored]. Obviously I felt I was being trapped here.

[ QUOTE ]
last hand ... still trying to wrap my head around it

[/ QUOTE ]

Dunno why I didn't post reads. My total stats at the table are 40/20, so I'm definetely in almost maniac mode right now. Not much playing back at me, although villain has been from time to time.

yvesaint

10-31-2005, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I've lost $600 in one hand before, at a $200 buy in table. No more, fortunatly. Second nut straight vs. nut straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, i lost a $1600 stack in 400 NL to a donk (probably a winner at the game though) with AA on a AJTTx board ....he had TT

anyways i think a lot of these hands are based on a single point in the hand. the AA hand, for example. if you call the mini-raise on the flop, you are going to the felt with this (unless something nasty like a T turns). same thing with the 68 hand, if you call that raise on the turn, you are going all the way (unless hi card pairs or something).

a lot of this is just read-dependent - are they playing back at you? do they realize youre not a maniac, just very aggressive? do they realize youve been c-betting a lot? and most important, are they actually adjusting? if they are actually adjusting, you can start to open up their ranges more, and be completely fine getting it all-in with AA on a T-high flop

however, from the AA hand, with no reads/etc., i think youre behind once he check-miniraises, especially after he pushes (probably puts you on the flush draw)

Malachii

10-31-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you dont know a bad session until you lose a 4xbuy-in stack in one hand (2nd best hands hurt.... hard)

[/ QUOTE ]
This is why I hate playing deep. Pocket those profits, brother!

Go_Blue88

10-31-2005, 08:56 PM

Hand 1--ya, I'd prolly value bet.

Hand2-- I actually think I like your play (given that you're playing like a maniac). I notice that when I play (too) LAG people overplay hands. I think you're good enough of the time to call here.

Hand 3-- I think that this is a pretty easy fold. Sure, he may have an overpair some of the time, but the way he played the hand strongly indicates a straight.

savman

10-31-2005, 09:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry about your bad session. Fold the flop in the AA hand. Fold the turn in the 68 hand. Obvious set. Obvious straight. And of course value bet the river in the AJ hand but you know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

ummm ok.
AA hand: against an unkown u can call flop reevaluate turn, i think folding is bad given ur image but i think calling a turn push is awful b/c i think u are imputing a read of yourself (i.e i am a maniac so he must be semibluffing/betting with weak values; when in truth an unknown is likely not thinking at all except look i have twips i shuld go all en blah blah) of course against an idiot/maniac i could make this call easy.

68 hand, i dont know why u wouldnt want to check turn here....the str8 draw got here, what is he going to call with u beat, and u turn your hand into 72 opening up to check raise...use position and take the free card and give urself a shot at outdrawing him if he flopped/got there, and u gain more if he fires with a weaker holding...i mean u near pot, u likely could have got to showdown with the money u put into pot here on tern.

xorbie

10-31-2005, 09:14 PM

On the turn he will call me with any T, any 8, possibly any 6 and definetely if he has a draw with it.

savman

10-31-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn he will call me with any T, any 8, possibly any 6 and definetely if he has a draw with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

do u expect him to call riv value bet with above range??? is it worth gaining a bet on the turn the times u are ahead compared to playing for your stack the times u are checkraised? if he calls turn with those holdings then he probably fires/calls pot bet on river. seems like u gain a fair amount when ahead, lost the least when behind....with this action u are behind large % imo.

xorbie

10-31-2005, 09:24 PM

Why should I give him a free 7 out draw?

10-31-2005, 09:27 PM

Unless these guys are rocks, you're getting all the money in with both those hands (although the 68 hand looks ugly). Maybe you should play a couple MTT's to mix it up?

savman

10-31-2005, 09:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why should I give him a free 7 out draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

stack protection vs. pot protection. when u pot turn u are committing urself to the hand or u might as well have 72....u call his check raise and the money is going in. imo a turn bet is a good way to put oneself in a bad spot. yea i know, poker is about tough decisions...blah blah...while true, that doesnt mean u cannot take proactive steps to minimize the number of hairy situations u are in. i check the turn.

xorbie

10-31-2005, 09:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why should I give him a free 7 out draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

stack protection vs. pot protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that I'm attempting to steal blinds in the vicinity of 40%, and given that I have two pair, and give that I will be called by a very wide range of hands most of which I am beating, I still don't think a check is too great here. Fold to the check/raise? Maybe. Check behind? Why?

savman

10-31-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why should I give him a free 7 out draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

stack protection vs. pot protection.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that I'm attempting to steal blinds in the vicinity of 40%, and given that I have two pair, and give that I will be called by a very wide range of hands most of which I am beating, I still don't think a check is too great here. Fold to the check/raise? Maybe. Check behind? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

a couple of pros for cheching behind that are not stack protection....

1. u gain when he misses draws/was calling to take away/ fires river with weak values.

2. i agree, particularly given ur image, there are a lot of hands that call here u beat, but when they call turn are u potting river and are they calling???????....i would submit a fair percentage of the range that will call a turn bet may think different when u fire again on river....so why not just check and get the money on the river. dragging a ~35bb pot with 68 is not bad, losing a ~100bb pot with 68 is not good.

TheWorstPlayer

10-31-2005, 09:55 PM

I definitely bet the turn, but you have to fold to the check/raise. He lets you off the hook easy!

AA hand, I don't mind calling the min raise and folding the turn push but he is obviously pushing the turn (look at the stacks!) so you might as well just fold the flop.

savman

10-31-2005, 10:11 PM

ok another approach.....

four subsets of hand ranges which [/b]are[/b] smooth calling flop c-bet from a player who has a wide range that he plays agressively. (caveat: i havent played party 400NL in a couple of months so feel free to input your own percent)

1.) small %(10) are calling with the intention of taking the pot away later. we bet the turn here, he may or may not have the balls to check raise out turn bet. if we check, he has a chance to fire at the river with air. if we bet, he either folds, or puts us to a decision.

2.) small % (10) who knows why he called but he is not putting another dime on the pot w/0 improving....maybe he has A high, 22,33 whatever, he folds to turn bet. sometimes he catches up and calls riv value bet, sometimes he catches up and we lose.

3.) decent perc. (60) calls with a range we beat...some are overpair, 8, 6, whatever....here i think at least half are willing to call turn bet but not river bet....this could be way off, but hard call for a8 2/3 pot on river. so half of these people would only call a would be river bet anyway, so our turn bet is worthless. sometimes (~15%)we lose when they catch up but it only costs us 11bb pot bet.

4.) moderate (20%) smooth calls with monster or 97 in which case here we are effed....sometimes we are drawing dead when he checkraises on turn, the rest drawing thin. when we check behind we only lose a pot bet to this guy and sometimes we catch up.

ok i am getting tired of doing this....but u get the idea, u can turn this into a math problem and see if checking or betting turn is best, this is not how i play so i am not doing it....i am checking turn here against unknowns and ~85% of players....takes a special breed {donkus pokerus} to persuade me to open my stack up in this situation. just my opinion.

TheWorstPlayer

10-31-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
takes a special breed {donkus pokerus} to persuade me to open my stack up in this situation. just my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think the best way to protect your stack is to bet the turn. It is an easy fold to a check/raise (he must have set or straight - straight more likely) and you can't be put to the test by him pushing the river and you believing it is an induced bluff. You also protect if he is still drawing (say with an overpair to counterfeit your two pair).

xorbie

11-01-2005, 03:50 AM

Ok so obviously I wouldn't post this if I lost (duh).

Hand 1: He had JJ.

Hand 2: He had 89.

I still don't like Hand 2, I think Hand 1 is NH xorbie.

amoeba

11-01-2005, 04:04 AM

maybe I'm being results oriented but I don't see anything wrong with these hands.