PP. $33 - Level 2 draw

[RobGW]

I'm on the button with A5c. 3 limpers to me. I limp in. Pot = $150. Flop comes 2c3c9d. I've got the nut flush draw, a straight draw, and an A. BB bets out $150. Two of the limpers call. Pot = $600 and its $150 to call. Fold, call, or raise? And why?

[pineapple888]

The stack sizes aren't listed, but it looks like an easy push to me if you have 700 or so behind.

You're probably 40-50%, depending on which outs are live, if you can see both cards. If one person calls, this gives you decent return on your investment. Two or more, you are stoked.

If you take the pot down right away, that's fine as well.

Call plus brick, you could get pushed out on the turn.

[mlagoo]

Assuming you have a party poker esque chipstack of something like 6-800 here, I just push it allin on the flop.

[tipperdog]

I'm with the push crowd. Most of the time, you have 15 outs and are the favorite to win. Even in the worst case scenario (vs. a set) you still have enough outs that your push is only marginally -EV...and that's the VERY worst case.

[mlagoo]

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I'm with the push crowd. Most of the time, you have 16 outs and are the favorite to win.

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yahtzee

[tipperdog]

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I'm with the push crowd. Most of the time, you have 16 outs and are the favorite to win.

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yahtzee

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I'm counting the 3 aces, 4 fours, and 8 remaining clubs (not counting the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif twice) to get to 15. How do you get 16?

[mlagoo]

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I'm with the push crowd. Most of the time, you have 16 outs and are the favorite to win.

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yahtzee

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I'm counting the 3 aces, 4 fours, and 8 remaining clubs (not counting the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif twice) to get to 15. How do you get 16?

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[censored]

nm.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
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I'm with the push crowd. Most of the time, you have 16 outs and are the favorite to win.

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yahtzee

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I'm counting the 3 aces, 4 fours, and 8 remaining clubs (not counting the 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif twice) to get to 15. How do you get 16?

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I'm not so sure about the Aces being live, or all the clubs
(high chance somebody else is in there with a draw). But it's still a push.

[RobGW]

I don't have the hand history handy but to the best of my recollection I think I had about 800 behind and most of the players invloved had the same + or - a few dollars. Now, for the next question. Why push instead of just raising?

[pineapple888]

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I don't have the hand history handy but to the best of my recollection I think I had about 800 behind and most of the players invloved had the same + or - a few dollars. Now, for the next question. Why push instead of just raising?

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What meaningful amount are you going to raise to when the pot is already $600?

And it's not like you have a monster and want to keep people in. If they come along, fine, but you are happy to take the pot down now.

Plus, you don't want to second guess on the turn. When you push, you leave yourself no choice but to see two cards.

That's enough, I guess. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tigerite]

Push. I don't think it's very close either.

[RobGW]

My question is more of: Do I even want to eliminate opponents here or do I want them to call a raise so I can build a big pot. I min raised here because I wanted to build a huge pot to compensate me for the times I lose this. I realize I am behind here and may go broke on a draw but I want to win the maximum when i do hit. I was fully planning on playing this to the river so there was no way I was going to fold on the turn. I just wanted as many people to put in money as I can get. Good idea or no?

[tigerite]

If you want to win the maximum when you hit, push now, because if the flush comes, your action will be much less, unless he has some ridiculous hand like two pair or a set, and then of course he has redraws on you.

[Simplistic]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is more of: Do I even want to eliminate opponents here or do I want them to call a raise so I can build a big pot. I min raised here because I wanted to build a huge pot to compensate me for the times I lose this. I realize I am behind here and may go broke on a draw but I want to win the maximum when i do hit. I was fully planning on playing this to the river so there was no way I was going to fold on the turn. I just wanted as many people to put in money as I can get. Good idea or no?

[/ QUOTE ]you still don't have a made hand, take the pot down now.

if you push and people come along for the ride you have excellent odds to double up. either raise big to build the pot and eliminate some people or push.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is more of: Do I even want to eliminate opponents here or do I want them to call a raise so I can build a big pot. I min raised here because I wanted to build a huge pot to compensate me for the times I lose this. I realize I am behind here and may go broke on a draw but I want to win the maximum when i do hit. I was fully planning on playing this to the river so there was no way I was going to fold on the turn. I just wanted as many people to put in money as I can get. Good idea or no?

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No -- you're still on a draw (albeit a strong one), this hand is most profitable if you maximize your fold equity. Don't be thinking, "I need to keep players in the pot with me," because at the moment you have diddly squat. Think...pushing does three things:
1) It gives you the greatest chance of taking down a nice pot right now.
2) It ensures that you will see both the turn and river correctly (which your hand needs).
3) It maximizes the amount of your win on the times you're called and your draw hits.

Push, not close, not a hand open for debate...the best play here is push.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is more of: Do I even want to eliminate opponents here or do I want them to call a raise so I can build a big pot. I min raised here because I wanted to build a huge pot to compensate me for the times I lose this. I realize I am behind here and may go broke on a draw but I want to win the maximum when i do hit. I was fully planning on playing this to the river so there was no way I was going to fold on the turn. I just wanted as many people to put in money as I can get. Good idea or no?

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There is an extremely large amount in the pot already and you should be worrying about winning that. You have a fair chance of taking it down with an allin raise, which would be a major coup. There's another benefit to raising though - you may increase your number of outs. If you can get a hand like A2 or A3 to fold you'll pick up the two aces as outs, which might not sound like a lot but it's another 8% chance or so of winning which is a fair bit of equity.

[Khern]

Is this a limp I should be making preflop?

I take it from everyone's straightfoward discussion of postflop play that the preflop limp is acceptable to those who responded, but it's ot one that I've been making.

John

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Is this a limp I should be making preflop?

I take it from everyone's straightfoward discussion of postflop play that the preflop limp is acceptable to those who responded, but it's ot one that I've been making.

John

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It depends on the size of your stack. If I have 600ish I let it go. I limp if I'm up to like T1000.

[Khern]

oh right, I should've included some potential stack sizes.

Thanks for the response. I think I may be trying too hard to make my game difficult to exploit and missing out on opportunities. I feel like limping is just putting that many more chips in the pot and screaming for one of the blinds to push, but that may not happen often enough to matter.

John

If the blinds were really pushing into limpers often enough to make your limp "exploitable", you could easily exploit the blinds by limping a strong hand. Your mistake costs 1 BB, theirs a huge piece of their stack. This is why raising big from the blinds into a limped field cannot be overdone.