Common flop situations

[mc1023]

I've been folding situations like this on the flop fairly often but I can't seem to recollect why, just been doing it by instinct lately. I also tend to avoid spots like these when I'm 6-8tabling, is that a leak?

Typical Partypoker 30-60, 10 Handed

Situation #1

Preflop: Hero is SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, all fold, button calls, Hero complete, BB checks.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5sb)
Hero check, BB check, UTG+1 check, UTG+2 bets, button folds, Hero folds...

Situation #2

Preflop: Hero is SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG+1 calls, all fold, CO calls, Hero completes, BB check.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4sb)
Hero check, BB check, UTG+1 check, CO bets, Hero folds...

someone care to refresh my memory please.

RE-EDIT: would it be any different if you were BB?

[PokerBob]

i don't know what you're thinking. i call here, but i play bad.

[baronzeus]

i call in both of these spots. i dont think reverse implieds are big enough to make up for direct implieds and pot equity in these cases.

[ErrantNight]

those both seem like terrible folds to me.

but then, both those preflop calls seem pretty terrible.

but then, i don't play 30-60. maybe i'm missing something.

[astroglide]

i don't see how the same person reconciles completing J6o in a 1/2 sb mid-limit game and folding open ends on the flop

[worm33]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been folding situations like this on the flop fairly often but I can't seem to recollect why, just been doing it by instinct lately. I also tend to avoid spots like these when I'm 6-8tabling, is that a leak?

Typical Partypoker 30-60, 10 Handed

Situation #1

Preflop: Hero is SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, all fold, button calls, Hero complete, BB checks.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5sb)
Hero check, BB check, UTG+1 check, UTG+2 bets, button folds, Hero folds...

Situation #2

Preflop: Hero is SB with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG+1 calls, all fold, CO calls, Hero completes, BB check.

Flop: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4sb)
Hero check, BB check, UTG+1 check, CO bets, Hero folds...

someone care to refresh my memory please.

EDIT: something about reverse implied odds... mmmmm.. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


In a 2/3 blind structure i think its close between calling and folding. I'm not sure but I think party 30-60 might be a $15 sb??? If it is its easily a fold. On the flop your getting 5-1 and 6-1 with each time a flush draw on the flop with 3 and 2 people to act behind you. So you have 6 clean outs, neither to the nuts and most of the time if there are 3 or more people calling the flop your calling to chop. I fold both on the flop, I dont think its very close.

[IndieMatty]

Why did you bother to complete this trash? Hell if I did; I'm betting out on that flop.

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm betting out on that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think betting this flop sucks bad. "first to get raised" position, no hand, dubious draw, and the entire flop is in the strike zone of playable cards.

[mc1023]

I had a good feeling these hands might be mistakes, since I have good equity in the pot with open-ender.

This particular situation where I flop open-ended from SB on a broadway flush board with a decent sized field this fold was very questionable, maybe I was running particularly bad the other night and I noticed folding these and wondered why I am doing so.

Then again I've been playing like a robot the past 6 weeks, clocking over 100k hands and I'm making some mistakes here and there like this one.

Thanks guys for the clarification... Just needed some fellow 2+2ers to yell at me! Leak has been plugged..

[mc1023]

I don't think the preflop call is a mistake as long as I'm getting away from weak holdings on the flops.

mmmmm bet sounds bad on this flop..

I dont understand how you can complete with that hand. Arent you worried about a BB raiser? And even if you arent I think its -EV. I ran pstove and your equity isnt nearly enough given my ranges. What type of hands do you put villains on when they open limp utg? And what type of hand does UTG+2 have when he isnt isolating?

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the preflop call is a mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

you are insane. there's no way to show a profit on that hand from the sb in a typical game.

[mc1023]

so you would fold in the sb after 3 limpers with a hand like Q7, K5, T7 as well? I liberally call a huge range in spots like these, which don't happen much. Rarely do two EP limp along with the button.

I don't think the preflop complete is that bad, its definently not very good but it's certainly not completly horrible.

[astroglide]

there really aren't shades of grey when it comes deciding if it's good or not. i think it is literally impossible to show a profit with the hand there. to whatever degree it's impossible it doesn't really matter, does it? how do you come up with "not very good" and "not completely horrible" sort of metrics? do you have statistics that show a long-term profit with the hand in that position, however slight?

with 3 limpers i will fold Q7o, K5o, and T7o 100% of the time.

that's a pretty good flop for J6 off. If i'm completing with that hand i'm calling one SB with my OESD.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
so you would fold in the sb after 3 limpers with a hand like Q7, K5, T7 as well?

[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, these are very easy folds. With only one limper, you can argue for completing because three-handed with right of first bluff, you can often take it down if everyone misses. If everyone limps, the pot is so big and you are getting in cheap, that you could argue for calling and hoping to flop a monster. But five-handed, you have the worst of both worlds. You are probably going to need to need to make a hand to win, but you won't do so nearly often enough to justify what you are paying to see the flop.

[mc1023]

J6o under these cirucumstances, 4-5 way to the flop in a 8-10 handed game.

I've voluntary put money in 13 out of 27 times for a net loss of -4.3BB. So looks like I've played them at times while other times I've folded depending on the limpers.

I also looked over the hand histories of these 13 particular hands, I almost folded all of them on the flop or turn when it was checked through. However there was on particular hand I flopped top two to get drawn out my an open-ender on the river.

Maybe my blinds are a bit loose due to the fact I played so much SH before making the transition to playing ring games lately. But are the preflop completes I mentioned that big of a mistake in a 8-10 handed game?

[astroglide]

[ QUOTE ]
But are the preflop completes I mentioned that big of a mistake in a 8-10 handed game?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes. they suck in shorthanded games too.

[mc1023]

[ QUOTE ]
yes. they suck in shorthanded games too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I certainly hope your not folding J6o and like hands 3-5 handed, when its limped to you..........

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I certainly hope your not folding J6o and like hands 3-5 handed, when its limped to you..........

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm folding J6o 3-5 handed when it's limped to me.

[mc1023]

3 handed... button limps... you fold J6o?

4 handed.. button limps... fold J6o?

fold K5o? Q8o?

I can't see how in hell you can fold these 3-5 handed when its limped... especially 3 handed.. unless you have some sort of strong read on the limper or the big blind is very aggressive preflop.

[RED_RAIN]

I think there is a difference between 3-5 handed to the flop in a 10 person game compared to 3-5 handed with 3-5 person game.

[TaintedRogue]

I would call in both cases, if, and only if, I was running really good and I was playing against my relatives at our annual family picnic. Otherwise, I fold.