do u guys use Harringtons' M value?

[chekraze]

i've only read half of his vol. 2 book and found the M concept interesting and have been using it. or do most people just look at how many BB they have in their stack to base decisions on.

is there a post that gives some rule of thumb as to what your play should be based on your M or # of BB's in your stack when faced with X # of players?

i've just been going on feel really.

Beware...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
i've only read half of his vol. 2 book and found the M concept interesting and have been using it. or do most people just look at how many BB they have in their stack to base decisions on.

is there a post that gives some rule of thumb as to what your play should be based on your M or # of BB's in your stack when faced with X # of players?

i've just been going on feel really.

[/ QUOTE ]

no...well yeah, but no, not really.

[ace_in_the_hole]

I have seen posts talking about how this is NOT a good concept to apply to SnG's. I wish I had more information for you but I think it had something to do with most party players not even knowing that BB is a unit of measurment for your stack size.

[valenzuela]

WTF is M , somebody plz tell me!!!

[tigerite]

I have no idea. I don't use it either.

[splashpot]

If you play at a site without antes, looking at M and your stack in terms of BB is essentially the same thing. They both measure how many rounds you can last before you're blinded out.

[tytygoodnuts]

Yeah I like to know my M so I have an idea of how desperate I am.

[PokerCat69]

What is 'M value'?

[valenzuela]

thats all?? man ive been using M for years.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
thats all?? man ive been using M for years.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...exactly

[tytygoodnuts]

M is the ratio of your stack to the blinds and antes. For example, if you have 2,100 chips and the blinds are 100/200 your M would be 7. Harrington goes into deal in vol. 2 on how the size of your M dictates how you play.

[splashpot]

M is the ratio: (your stack size)/(blinds+antes)

[transmitt]

In STT's I do use M, in multi's I tend to go with Q. Really in a sit and go, M is a good reflection of fold equity. If your M gets too low, you are going to get called w/ garbage regardless. I'd rather bust 6th or 5th trying to get chips w/ a KQ or reasonably ranked hand v. folding to the bubble where first time I push the BB calls regardless (unless he is a donkey).

[tigerite]

007 wouldn't like it if you go with Q. He'd have nobody to make him his gadgets.

[transmitt]

lol. Didn't even think of THE Q when reading the book.
Nice Post!

[wahooriver]

I thought Harrington's discussion of M helped me a great deal. I understood the concept intuitively, but he helped me think through the details. His book is "chock full" of example hands and situations. While we each must find our own style, reading his discussions of how and why he would proceed should help any but the most experienced players.

I agree that the main point here is that once the blinds hit either 75/150 or 100/200, I must "pull the trigger" more easily. I do start pushing with any reasonable hand, understanding that either I will steal the blinds or be in a coin flip (or slightly worse) situation. When the blinds starting eating you, you have not choice. M just quantifies the damage!

So I do use M as a construct. More important than M is reading Harrington's thought process.

[swiftrhett]

I think M doesn't really make sense in Party SNG's because everyone's M is low when the blinds get big, so everyone is in the "Red Zone". It makes more sense to just use ICM. I think that M is a more usefull concept if you're in a big MTT, and players have M's ranging from 50 to 3.

[Nicholasp27]

M is not the same as thinking in terms of how many bbs you have, as M is sb+bb (+ antes, if applicable)

800 chips, 100/200 level
=4bbs
=2.66 M


also, he says u should use EFFECTIVE M, so you multiply M by the % of people left at table...so your M is halved if there are only 5 left...but in a SNG, that doesn't work too well, because

5 people left

you have 4000 chips
blinds are 200/400

M=6.67
effective M = 3.33

you really aren't in the red zone with 4k chips with 5 people left in an 8k chip tourney...that's why sngs don't use M (especially effective M) as well as deep-stack MTTs


also, we use ICM to guide our decisions when u are <10bbs, so no need for M when ICM is more accurate and applicable to sngs

[Jbrochu]

[ QUOTE ]
M is not the same as thinking in terms of how many bbs you have, as M is sb+bb (+ antes, if applicable)

800 chips, 100/200 level
=4bbs
=2.66 M

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct in that they are not the exact same thing. Obviously, 4 bbs is not 4 M in your example. However, they are tools used for the same thing in that your level of aggressiveness in a given situation should be the same if you had an M of 2.66 or 4 bbs.

Think of them both as aggressiveness meters that give you the same answer if they're calibrated correctly. Which meter you use is a matter of personal preference.

ICM has nothing directly in common with M or # of bbs. M (or # of bbs) can indicate if you should think about ratcheting up your aggression level. ICM will tell you if a move you're contemplating is likely to be correct based on $EV.

[Nicholasp27]

my point is that when you have <10bbs, you should be using ICM to determine your push/fold strategy, so M doesn't really apply to sngs (at least in party structure)...we use icm and opp calling/pushing ranges to determine how aggressive we can be in pushing/calling based on if it's +$ev to make that move compared to folding based on ranges and icm value of outcomes

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
M is not the same as thinking in terms of how many bbs you have, as M is sb+bb (+ antes, if applicable)

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the same thing in a nonante game. You're simply adjusting the relative numbers, and M is better because it has the ability to take into account the antes when that situation comes up (and missing small blinds).

Of course, number of BBs is easier to figure out and since there are no antes in Party SNGs, using BBs is equivalent and is what most people use.

[Nicholasp27]

i don't see how sb+bb=bb

[Jbrochu]

I understand your point. My point is that while you might use ICM to determine push/fold when your bbs<10, an "M user" might use ICM to determine push/fold strategy when their M < 5.

(Much like Americans choose to wear a warm jacket when it's 32 degrees, and Europeans wear a warm jacket when its 0 degrees.)

[Exitonly]

w/ SnG's, i just use my # of BB's, it's easier to look at and know right away, and equally as useful.

M comes in to play when you have antes, the bigger than antes (in proportion to the blinds) the more useful M becomes over # of BB's.

I think live events would be where M is more important, as the antes are bigger there in proportion. i.e. typically on Stars the antes are 1/20th the BB. at EPT dublin they were 1/10th the BB... and i've read of ones even bigger.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
w/ SnG's, i just use my # of BB's, it's easier to look at and know right away, and equally as useful.

M comes in to play when you have antes, the bigger than antes (in proportion to the blinds) the more useful M becomes over # of BB's.

I think live events would be where M is more important, as the antes are bigger there in proportion. i.e. typically on Stars the antes are 1/20th the BB. at EPT dublin they were 1/10th the BB... and i've read of ones even bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, this the biggest reason why just looking at BBs is easiest for SNGs...Also its more complicated than just saying "I have 9BBs, push." or "I have 11 BBs, raise". (But lets not get into that here)

But in an SNG antes will rarely account for much of the preflop pot. For example, on stars, when the antes kick in, there will rarely be more than 125 worth of antes in the middle so its not a huge consideration (although it is relevant). In an MTT there will almost always be 9 or 10 times the ante in the middle so just looking at your # of BBs is not very helpful in showing where you're at, so to speak.

good post.

[maddog2030]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't see how sb+bb=bb

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point is that its all relative. Whether you push when you have <10xBB or <6.66M doesn't really matter in a Party SNG, they are representing the same thing. And of course, M is more accurate for cases where the small blind is missing or there are antes.

So saying that M has no value in SNGs really makes no sense. It's simply common convention to use BBs.