3-bet AJ, now what?

[schwza]

villain is somewhat aggro pre-flop.
***** Hand History for Game 2956358025 *****
200/400 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 17007208) - Sun Oct 30 20:40:41 EST 2005
Table $30,000 Guaranteed(500436) Table 3 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: BraveRob (1788)
Seat 2: Beezo911 (3785)
Seat 3: TalkTo (4346)
Seat 4: HERO (4224)
Seat 5: ONEBAD73 (5286)
Seat 6: cruisinhome (3306)
Seat 7: dykstrad (3910)
Seat 8: MagicP41 (6363)
Seat 10: Aharon (4876)
TalkTo posts small blind (100)
HERO posts big blind (200)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ad, Jh ]
ONEBAD73 folds.
cruisinhome folds.
dykstrad folds.
MagicP41 folds.
Aharon folds.
BraveRob folds.
Beezo911 raises (400) to 400
TalkTo folds.
HERO raises (1000) to 1200
Beezo911 calls (800)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8c, 3s, 8h ]
HERO ??

I'm not seeing the 3-bet. Did you post this incorrectly, or are you asking if you should 3-bet?

[rockythecat99]

I despise miniraises. I think I push here and send him a message not to mess with my blinds. I think this is a stupid attempt at a blind steal. Ive seen this a lot lately.

[schwza]

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I'm not seeing the 3-bet. Did you post this incorrectly, or are you asking if you should 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha, oops. after i made the title i decided to cut off the post at my first action.

fixed now.

[Sam T.]

I think I'd need more of a read here, but there are a couple of ways to go.

First, aggro or not, I just hate, hate, hate AJo OOP against a raise. If he were in EP or had a caller, I'd drop this without a second thought. But given his tendencies and position, I agree that this is playable.

Second, have you seen anyone play back at him? Is he capable of laying down to a raise? Actually, never mind, I do not want to raise an aggro opponent with AJ. If he re-raises I want to throw up, so I call and have a look at the flop.

If the flop is friendly and I can count on a c-bet I'd probably go for a CR. Use his aggression against him. If it's ragged, you're on a decision. Betting out might work, but again, a CR if you think he whiffed is interesting. Or check-call, then bet big on the turn, depending on the board. You just gotta be careful not to double him up on an ace-high flop, which can be tough.

Lots of options out there.

Sam

Edit: Wrote this before you posted the PF raise. Unless I've seen him lay down to a raise, no way I do this. Far too many players will not fold once they've put in a raise. So no you've got a big pot, marginal hand, worse position.

Well, now there's almost 3k in the pot, and you've only got that much left. I imagine that you are ahead here, but villain could easily be on a pocket pair. There are no good options. Check and see what he does. I don't usually recommend the CR-all-in with Ace-high and no draws, but if you think he's on something like KQs, it might work. If he gives you the free card, I'm inclined to bet out.

[Lloyd]

The problem with pushing is that you're betting 3600 into a 700 pot. I understand sending a message but you'll only get called by hands you are behind, and often way behind. The problem with making a normal raise to around 1300 is you're building a big pot out of position against somebody who will likely call your raise because they don't want to admit they were trying to steal your blind. Calling doesn't seem horrible but at the same time you're creating a nice size pot that will be worth fighting for.

So none of the options is really ideal here. I think I call and play from there.

[schwza]

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So no you've got a big pot, marginal hand, worse position.

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i think villain is raising at least 25% of his hands here. i'd say i have a premium hand with a big pot out of position.

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You just gotta be careful not to double him up on an ace-high flop, which can be tough.


[/ QUOTE ]

if i call and flop an A, there's very little chance i'm going to fold it. he's got AK/AQ there as often as he has AT/A9, plus there's money in the middle and he can have a bunch of other hands i crush (like worse Ax hands, for example).

[betgo]

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The problem with pushing is that you're betting 3600 into a 700 pot. I understand sending a message but you'll only get called by hands you are behind, and often way behind.

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I like pushing with AJ versus a button raise. Sometimes you will be dominated when you are called, but you will sometimes be pretty even versus a pp or KQ or something. You may even get called by dominated hands like AT, A9, or KJ. You will pick up the 700 an awful lot of times.

I prefer to push or flat call as a second choice rather than put a big part of my stack in OOP, but some people may be comfortable with the raise to 1200.

[Sam T.]

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So no you've got a big pot, marginal hand, worse position.

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i think villain is raising at least 25% of his hands here. i'd say i have a premium hand with a big pot out of position.

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You just gotta be careful not to double him up on an ace-high flop, which can be tough.


[/ QUOTE ]

if i call and flop an A, there's very little chance i'm going to fold it. he's got AK/AQ there as often as he has AT/A9, plus there's money in the middle and he can have a bunch of other hands i crush (like worse Ax hands, for example).

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, he's that aggro. Okay, so you've got a better hand than I thought. Did you think that your raise might fold him out? If so, I like it. If you know you are going to get called, I like it less.

As for the flop play, do you put him on a particular range here, or is he raising and calling with 72o? Obviously it's pretty wide, but it might give us some idea of where you stand.

After furthe consideration, I think that you probably should push this flop. The pot is huge, and it's the only way you have and FE. If he's got a pair, so be it.

[schwza]

do you think raising 25% of your hands when it's folded to you on the button and everyone has plenty of chips is that aggro? i'd say "average" aggro-ness is around 9% overall, and i think this guy was around 11 or 12%. i know i'm at least 2x as likely to open-raise from the button than i am on a random pre-flop hand (which includes horrible spots like utg raises and it's folded to me in MP).

i would say his raising range was something like 22+, A5+, K8+, Q9+, a bunch of connectors. i don't know how much of that he would have folded.

[betgo]

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i would say his raising range was something like 22+, A5+, K8+, Q9+, a bunch of connectors. i don't know how much of that he would have folded.

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If he doesn't fold some Ax, Kx, 22-TT hands, then you have a dominating hand or are slightly ahead or behind plus pot odds.

I like the push as a semibluff. It also gaives you a chance to double up on a coin flip, and discourages attacks on your blinds.

Pushing with AJ BB vs. button is a similar semibluff to pushing with AK versus a 4th position raiser. These hands play well allin, since you are frequently going to win with ace high.

[schwza]

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i would say his raising range was something like 22+, A5+, K8+, Q9+, a bunch of connectors. i don't know how much of that he would have folded.

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If he doesn't fold some Ax, Kx, 22-TT hands, then you have a dominating hand or are slightly ahead or behind plus pot odds.

I like the push as a semibluff. It also gaives you a chance to double up on a coin flip, and discourages attacks on your blinds.

Pushing with AJ BB vs. button is a similar semibluff to pushing with AK versus a 4th position raiser. These hands play well allin, since you are frequently going to win with ace high.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he were a little shorter, or had raised a little more, i would've pushed. but here i'd be risking 3700 to win 700. i didn't neccessarily want to blow a hand like KT or QJ out of the water.

[EverettKings]

I push.

On that flop I'm still liking my hand. The weird thing is his 2500 chip stack. But you can't check and risk a free card, and you can't bet any amount and not be committed to calling his push. Sure, if you push he probably calls with better hands and folds worse ones (save maybe folding AQ), but your hand is so vulnerable and his stack is so shallow that there's really only one way to play it.

Well, unless he's the type to bet that flop with air if you check to him. But I'd be willing to bet that he checks behind most of his nonpair hands here. Checking and folding to a push would be an OK line except that it begs him to take a free card and outdraw you with lots of hands you beat. He could also see a good bluff card and move in (K or Q, for example). So yeah just push.

[schwza]

2 questions:

- what do you think of the preflop?

- what about a line of betting 1/3 pot on the flop and planning on calling a push? i go broke vs a pair either way, but this might encourage a hand like KQ or A8 to get the chips in.

[ChrisW]

Call preflop. Somewhat counterintuitively, you should reraise a tick raiser less often than a standard raiser. First of all, your calling odds are better against a tick raiser. Secondly, your reraise allows a tick raiser to get all his chips in when he has a monster, but fold losing only 2BB when he is weak. So, call and give yourself good odds, rather than raising and giving villain good odds.

The way to punish tick raisers is by checkraising their continuation bets. You'll often win a nice pot on the flop, making up for the times that you miss. In addition, the tick raiser hasn't succeeded in defining the hands very well, so he will often give you action postflop on a weaker hand because he can't be sure where he stands.

Postflop, there's no good answer. Which is why I would never play a big pot with AJ OOP. I'd either move in preflop (according to my math, slightly +EV versus folding) or call.

[zambonidrivr]

if villian is agressive, and you have an M of dick, this becomes an auto preflop push... and blinds. You need to make a move, and against a player like this is best.

FYI.... I won the tournament. NH

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
if villian is agressive, and you have an M of dick, this becomes an auto preflop push... and blinds. You need to make a move, and against a player like this is best.


[/ QUOTE ]

i have 21 bb's left - it's not exactly desperation mode.

[ QUOTE ]

FYI.... I won the tournament. NH

[/ QUOTE ]

congrats. must have been a nice payday.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
2 questions:

- what do you think of the preflop?

- what about a line of betting 1/3 pot on the flop and planning on calling a push? i go broke vs a pair either way, but this might encourage a hand like KQ or A8 to get the chips in.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is part of the problem (which I know you know). If he's a decent, agro player he's going to raise you on any flop bet. If you flopped a big hand (he thinks) you'd be more likely to check-raise since he took the betting lead pre-flop. (Of course, this is why we often should lead out with a big hand here.) So if you're going to make a move on the flop I think a check-raise or a small bet that would allow him to raise and still leave some folding equity to a push is probably the best move.

With that said, I am convinced that the more moves I try to make on people (in an online MTT) the worse my outcomes tend to be. I got into a habit of thinking I could bully people around with chips and outplay everyone. But you know, you can't outplay people who have no clue they're being outplayed. So fine, I'll call with AJ. See a flop. If I get a piece or have a decent drawing hand then I'll play it. If not, fine, he won a little pot off me, no biggie. I don't have to win every hand or defend every blind with all my chips. There's lots of poker still to be played.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
if villian is agressive, and you have an M of dick, this becomes an auto preflop push... and blinds. You need to make a move, and against a player like this is best.

FYI.... I won the tournament. NH

[/ QUOTE ]
Your post makes little sense and contributes the same to this thread.

[Sam T.]

[ QUOTE ]
2 questions:

- what about a line of betting 1/3 pot on the flop and planning on calling a push? i go broke vs a pair either way, but this might encourage a hand like KQ or A8 to get the chips in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting - I like this line. I can't remember the stack sizes, but I would probably bet enough that he has two choices: fold or push, either of which is an acceptable outcome.

If he's on A8, I don't think you are going to any trouble convincing him to put his chips in. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2 questions:

- what do you think of the preflop?

- what about a line of betting 1/3 pot on the flop and planning on calling a push? i go broke vs a pair either way, but this might encourage a hand like KQ or A8 to get the chips in.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is part of the problem (which I know you know). If he's a decent, agro player he's going to raise you on any flop bet. If you flopped a big hand (he thinks) you'd be more likely to check-raise since he took the betting lead pre-flop. (Of course, this is why we often should lead out with a big hand here.) So if you're going to make a move on the flop I think a check-raise or a small bet that would allow him to raise and still leave some folding equity to a push is probably the best move.



[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think we're on the same page - i meant after i 3-bet. i'm saying that i'm going broke against a better hand, so betting 1/3-pot and letting him raise for the other 2/3-pot might be a good way to get the chips in vs. a worse hand instead of only against a better one.

[schwza]

pot is 2400, he has 2585.

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If he's on A8, I don't think you are going to any trouble convincing him to put his chips in.

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i knew the turn/river was coming JJ, so i just wanted to make sure he didn't slowplay and chicken out when the J's hit. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[ QUOTE ]

With that said, I am convinced that the more moves I try to make on people (in an online MTT) the worse my outcomes tend to be. I got into a habit of thinking I could bully people around with chips and outplay everyone. But you know, you can't outplay people who have no clue they're being outplayed. So fine, I'll call with AJ. See a flop. If I get a piece or have a decent drawing hand then I'll play it. If not, fine, he won a little pot off me, no biggie. I don't have to win every hand or defend every blind with all my chips. There's lots of poker still to be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With that said, I am convinced that the more moves I try to make on people (in an online MTT) the worse my outcomes tend to be. I got into a habit of thinking I could bully people around with chips and outplay everyone. But you know, you can't outplay people who have no clue they're being outplayed. So fine, I'll call with AJ. See a flop. If I get a piece or have a decent drawing hand then I'll play it. If not, fine, he won a little pot off me, no biggie. I don't have to win every hand or defend every blind with all my chips. There's lots of poker still to be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[/ QUOTE ]

i love people who will call my raise and then fold to a cbet every time they miss.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

With that said, I am convinced that the more moves I try to make on people (in an online MTT) the worse my outcomes tend to be. I got into a habit of thinking I could bully people around with chips and outplay everyone. But you know, you can't outplay people who have no clue they're being outplayed. So fine, I'll call with AJ. See a flop. If I get a piece or have a decent drawing hand then I'll play it. If not, fine, he won a little pot off me, no biggie. I don't have to win every hand or defend every blind with all my chips. There's lots of poker still to be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see this is making a move or outplaying. I see a push as a semibluff and value bet. You probably have the best hand. It's not like you are pushing with junk.

The math of a push is very favorable. You pick up the 700 pot a lot. Yeah, you will be dominated some times, but a lot of times your opponent will be dominated or it will be close with some pot odds.

Plus pushing has the side benefit of discouraging attacks on your blinds. You also may wind up with a coin flip to double up and build a big stack.

If you call the miniraise, it looks like you could have anything. Your opponent has initiative and position.

[ QUOTE ]
if he were a little shorter, or had raised a little more, i would've pushed. but here i'd be risking 3700 to win 700. i didn't neccessarily want to blow a hand like KT or QJ out of the water.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you raise to 1200 and he calls you. The pot is now 2500 and you are first to act. Any reasonable bet (40%+ of the pot) commits you to the pot. You give him more information and better pot odds to call any bets after the flop.

I think you either raise less preflop or go all-in.

[EverettKings]

[ QUOTE ]
2 questions:

- what do you think of the preflop?


[/ QUOTE ]

I like a flat call. Sorry for not addressing this before.

Reraising preflop puts you in a funny spot when you get called and miss. At that point you can't really make a continuation bet without being committed to getting all in. So basically you're banking on him folding preflop or on outflopping him. The problem with trying to outflop him is that all of your chips are going in every time (pretty much) but he can decide if he wants his chips in or not. Basically once you get to a flop you're at his mercy and the mercy of the deck. You don't get a ton of value from your AJ. So, call and play a flop. Hell you can probably just check/fold when you miss and check/push when you hit and you'll do pretty well.

I'd like a reraise more with like 66 or 97s. If he pushes over you preflop, not a big deal getting away. If he folds, he probably folded a better hand. If he calls you can do your best to identify flops that he won't like. And when all else fails, you can make a hand (or suck out). I wouldn't reraise these every time but it's something to think about.



[ QUOTE ]

- what about a line of betting 1/3 pot on the flop and planning on calling a push? i go broke vs a pair either way, but this might encourage a hand like KQ or A8 to get the chips in.

[/ QUOTE ]

So reraise to 1200 preflop and bet 800 into 2500 on the flop? Do you really think many worse hands will make a play at you with that bet? Im just not sure.

And think about it: if you reraised preflop to 1200 and open push for (effectively) 2500, he would have difficulty calling with a baby pair and most certainly folds out all worse hands (that have a lot of outs on you). Unless he's a DUMB lag, you have a large amount of fold equity there. If you think that you can make a bet that looks scarier (say, 1500 which is obviously committing), then I'd do it.

Yeah I'm really not sure on this one but I just think it's a stronger, cleaner line to just jam and, if nothing else, send a message that says "DONT F*** WITH ME"

[schwza]

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if you reraised preflop to 1200 and open push for (effectively) 2500, he would have difficulty calling with a baby pair

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i'd be pretty surprised to see a small pair fold on this flop regardless of what i bet.

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and most certainly folds out all worse hands (that have a lot of outs on you)

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yeah, but i don't want worse hands to fold. they either have 6 outs (3:1 to hit) or 3 outs (7:1). i'd like to get their chips in the middle since villain is only getting 2:1. i also think there's no way i fold out AK/AQ (esp. since they would've usually pushed preflop).

[ QUOTE ]
So basically you're banking on him folding preflop or on outflopping him

[/ QUOTE ]

or not needing to outflop him.

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The problem with trying to outflop him is that all of your chips are going in every time (pretty much) but he can decide if he wants his chips in or not.

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i think this is the strongest reason not to reraise w/o pushing. color me convinced.

[betgo]

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The problem with trying to outflop him is that all of your chips are going in every time (pretty much) but he can decide if he wants his chips in or not.



[/ QUOTE ]
i think this is the strongest reason not to reraise w/o pushing. color me convinced.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another problem with reraising without pushing is what do you do if villain pushes preflop. You are kind of pot committed at that point and you may not be dominated. It would be pretty bad to fold at this.

By raising to 1200 you are basically risking all your chips before and after the flop if your opponent wants to go allin. By just pushing, all the pressure and tough decisions are on your opponent.