Omaha/8, do I have a turn bet here?

[JTG51]

This is from a loose passive low limit game Omaha/8 game. Most of the players (including me) are very new to Omaha.

5 players limp, SB completes, I raise in the BB with A /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 3 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . Everyone calls. We see the flop 7 handed for 2 bets each.

Flop: Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

SB checks, I bet and get 3 callers, including the SB.

Turn: [Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif ] K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

SB checks, I check, everyone checks.

River: [Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/club.gif K /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ] 8 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

SB checks, I bet and get 2 callers.

How'd I do? Should I bet the turn with my two pair, nut low draw after the third spade hits? Thanks!

[beernutz]

I ran the sims below to see what amounts to a worse case scenario on the turn - the nut flush is out there. If they are, you don't fare too well against them so the check seems wise.
<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr> http://twodimes.net/h/?z=31308
pokenum -o8 ac kh 3c 2h - as 2s 4d td -- qs 7s 2c ks
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing Ks Qs 7s 2c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 3c Kh 2h 3 3 37 0 15 0 0 0.263
As 2s Td 4d 22 37 3 0 3 12 0 0.738
</pre><hr>

Even worser case
<pre><font class="small">code:</font><hr> http://twodimes.net/h/?z=31310
pokenum -o8 ac kh 3c 2h - as 2s 3d td -- qs 7s 2c ks
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 40 enumerated boards containing Ks Qs 7s 2c
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ac 3c Kh 2h 3 3 37 0 0 0 16 0.175
As 2s Td 3d 21 37 3 0 0 0 16 0.825
</pre><hr>

[Buzz]

"Should I bet the turn with my two pair, nut low draw after the third spade hits?"

JTG - Yes.

Your object is to scoop. You bet the turn to greatly improve your chances of scooping. Perhaps betting the turn will induce a tight player to fold a baby flush. Wouldn't you like anyone with a baby flush to fold before the showdown? In that case, assuming your kings and deuces do not improve, your two pair will win for high.

But if there is no bet on the turn, nobody with a baby flush is going to fold to a bet from you on the river if you do make the nut low and decide to bet.

Betting the turn here would amount to a semi-bluff. In the meanwhile, you have two pair and the nut low draw.

By all means and without any doubt you should bet the turn.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Beernutz - Checking the turn is too passive, in my humble opinion.

True, the nut flush will not fold to your bet - but a lesser flush might. Thus you bet not to get more money in the pot, but to increase you chances of winning for high, by inducing a non-nut high that is better than yours to fold - thus increasing your chances of scooping or getting 3/4.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[chaos]

I think betting the turn depends on the texture of the game.

Since this game is loose with many players new to Omaha my guess is players are showing down non-nut hands. It seems unlikely that a turn bet will get anyone to fold a flush. On the other hand non-nut low draws will also probably call.

If you bet and someone has the nut flush they are likely to raise. Not only will you be forced to pay two bets to hit your draws but it may chase out other players if they have to call two bets cold.

If I have a good read and players in the hand are weak players I would be more inclined to check. In a tougher game were people will lay down 2nd or 3rd nut flushes and worse for high and non-nut low draws, I would be more inclined to bet.

In my opinion, it is usually best to play straightforwardly against weak competition.

[beernutz]

I play a lot of $2/4 and $3/6 on various poker sites which may influence my thought process but I've seen MANY times where non-nut flushes will not only not fold to a turn bet here they will raise/reraise. That is great if I'm holding the nut flush but not so great with the hand in question, IMO. I'm not really arguing that I'm right when I suggest the passive option here, just defending somewhat my rationale. Thanks as always for your input Buzz.

[Buzz]

Hi Beernutz - ".....I've seen MANY times where non-nut flushes will not only not fold to a turn bet here they will raise/reraise."

Me too. You have a good point.

But you're missing a play here by not raising. In addition, playing aggressively tends to put your opponents on the defense, which is probably good for you when you have a tight/aggressive style (which I believe is best).

Raising, getting called, and losing the extra bet your raise costs you amounts to making a minor mistake.

Not raising and losing half a pot you might have won had you raised would be a major mistake.

Of course, there's no way around knowing your opponents. And I agree with Chaos that simple plays work best.

But I don't think a raise here is complicated or tricky - just seems like solid play to me. I don't want to be stubborn about it, but I'm still strongly in favor of raising here.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[JTG51]

I got two callers on the river. The SB showed a T high flush to take the high, the other caller flopped a set of 7's, so I got half the pot.

Thanks for the replies. I really like this game, I just need to play some more now.

[iblucky4u2]

JTG51 - welcome to the wonderful world of O/8.

As for the question to raise or not to raise - here is another point of view.
When you are starting out, especially in a loose game, don't try any fancy plays.
Some things to consider - You will rarely get a player to fold even a T high flush in a loose game filled with beginners.

You have no protection left for your low. then you have bupkas. even if the low comes, you might get 1/4 or less!

What happens if the board pairs? A 2 is no good and the K might not be good enough!

Once you are able to make the bet because you understand the reasons that Buzz etc state, and your opponents are good enough to throw away less than nut hands, then go ahead and bet the turn.

In an advanced game (even low limit) a bet on the turn then a high red card on the river can lead to your scooping with a bet on the river. One of my favorite plays!

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I think you got quartered. I wouldn't bet out with 2 pair on a flush board.

[Aragorn]

I would tend to check the hand. You are basically on a draw with one card to go. And you could make the low and only get 1/4 of the pot or make the full house and lose.

I don't want to put more money into the pot unless I have to in this situation