Advice on how this hand was played? (6max, big pot) [Archive]

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Sightless

10-31-2005, 12:44 PM

The table is somewhat lagtastic, two guys to my right play over 55% of their hands and raise like over 15% of their hands preflop

Sb is 68/16/1.44 over 70 hands
CO on the other hand is Unkown...

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises, MP calls, CO 3-bets, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, Hero caps, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (24 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP folds, CO caps, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (20.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (24.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

MrWookie47

10-31-2005, 12:46 PM

I think this is good. I was really tempted to raise the river since you hold two of the Q's, but going for overcalls is probably better.

TomBrooks

10-31-2005, 12:54 PM

nh. I don't want to raise the straight on the river with a flush possibility out there. If your good, you may make up the lost call from the bettor with overcalls. If your losing, you get three bet and you can't fold.

aargh57

10-31-2005, 12:55 PM

I think it's standard. I was thinking that maybe a river raise would be good except you've got that 3 flush on board. If you raise you won't get anyone with a Q to fold and you will end up losing more to a flush or higher straight so I think that you played it fine.

Vote4Pedro

10-31-2005, 01:06 PM

COs done nothing but raise and reraise...so I'm not liking the turn lead, especially against an unknown. As for the river, I think calling and letting CO overcall with his KK is the way to go

Redd

10-31-2005, 01:16 PM

I'm surprised by how many people like this hand. CO has raised at every opportunity; after the pf-3bet and flop cap, this is almost never AJ or TT. IMO the turn bet is spewing.

I think even the flop 3-bet is close since I'm not sure if enough unknown villains will 3bet AJ pf or raise TT on the flop. However, I'd probably still do it based on the pot size, number of donks padding the pot, and the chance he puts you on UI AK with a weaker pair.

MrWookie47

10-31-2005, 01:23 PM

You make a good point. I don't always read the preflop action as closely as I should. I tend to just jump straight to the meat and sometimes miss important stuff that makes or breaks the decision. Redd is right.

Sightless

10-31-2005, 01:38 PM

So, I should do check/call on the turn?

What if I check on the turn CO bets it and someone reraises, easy fold?

If I check, CO bets and everyone Calls on the turn and the river is a brick Do I check/call also?

lautzutao

10-31-2005, 01:41 PM

I think I would have raised that river.

Nfinity

10-31-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised by how many people like this hand. CO has raised at every opportunity; after the pf-3bet and flop cap, this is almost never AJ or TT. IMO the turn bet is spewing.

I think even the flop 3-bet is close since I'm not sure if enough unknown villains will 3bet AJ pf or raise TT on the flop. However, I'd probably still do it based on the pot size, number of donks padding the pot, and the chance he puts you on UI AK with a weaker pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is AJ or some TP hand with decent draws enough to 3-bet here, especially with the amount of meat puppets padding the pot who could possibly drop to his cap.

Deadmoney=good stuff.

I'm for checking the Turn after he caps though.

Oh and raise the river. Unless SB will bluff bet/fold this river he is calling one more bet. Unless CO if just the king of making the big laydowns he has shown us his desire to go to Showdown enough to overcall our raise here with KK and AA. BB is a hopeless case and I wouldn't expect him to call here very often anyway.

Reqtech

10-31-2005, 02:24 PM

Nfinity

10-31-2005, 02:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, I should do check/call on the turn?

What if I check on the turn CO bets it and someone reraises, easy fold?

If I check, CO bets and everyone Calls on the turn and the river is a brick Do I check/call also?

[/ QUOTE ]

You would at least be getting 11.75:1 on your call, which is more than enough for your gutshot draw if all your outs are live, and you have to make up a little over 1BB if one of them is dirty. Factor in the few times your Set outs are good (this is a really easy board for someone to have 2 pair on) and it's a profitable call. Just be careful on the River with the Trips.

10-31-2005, 02:37 PM

Don't bet the turn, other than that it is all good.

Margon

Redd

10-31-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised by how many people like this hand. CO has raised at every opportunity; after the pf-3bet and flop cap, this is almost never AJ or TT. IMO the turn bet is spewing.

I think even the flop 3-bet is close since I'm not sure if enough unknown villains will 3bet AJ pf or raise TT on the flop. However, I'd probably still do it based on the pot size, number of donks padding the pot, and the chance he puts you on UI AK with a weaker pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Disagree. The turn card gave us a little more equity with 4 gutshot outs, though the 2 remaining queens are now very suspect. If CO raised on the turn, then call down (assuming we didn't make the straight on the river)

[/ QUOTE ]

What losing hand range can you reasonably put Villan on here? Our equity is a little higher, but the flop cap means we're very likely behind. It sounds to me like you're advocating a value-bet with a 4.5-outer on the turn.

Nfinity

10-31-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't bet the turn, other than that it is all good.

Margon

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

jrz1972

10-31-2005, 03:16 PM

I don't like the turn bet at all. The only hand villain could possibly have that's consistent with the action so far that you're beating is TT, and he might not have capped with that preflop. You're up against AA, KK, or JJ here the overwhelming majority of the time.

Otherwise, everything is standard. I hate the suggestion to raise the river. You're getting an overcall from CO. However, hands you beat will not overcall two cold, and hands that have you beat will be quick to 3-bet.

10-31-2005, 03:19 PM

I am checking the turn against an unknown who has been aggressive.
I like the overcall on the river. If you raise and force the others out, and SB 3-bets his flush, you're making a crying call. On the other hand, you will make more money with the overcalls the times that SB does not have a flush.

Nfinity

10-31-2005, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise, everything is standard. Raising the river would suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why?

jrz1972

10-31-2005, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and raise the river. Unless SB will bluff bet/fold this river he is calling one more bet. Unless CO if just the king of making the big laydowns he has shown us his desire to go to Showdown enough to overcall our raise here with KK and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA and KK are both uber-easy folds facing a bet-and-raise on this board IMO.

Nfinity

10-31-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh and raise the river. Unless SB will bluff bet/fold this river he is calling one more bet. Unless CO if just the king of making the big laydowns he has shown us his desire to go to Showdown enough to overcall our raise here with KK and AA.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA and KK are both uber-easy folds facing a bet-and-raise on this board IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's you, and you are probably correct to do so, but our opponents aren't ones to make the correct folds in these situations.

Besides that, most of the time if he folds you still net the BB you lose from him from SB when he calls. Your counting on Button to call a bet that he wouldn't have called had you raised for this to be +EV, and I don't think this is happening to often.

As far as SB having the Flush, look at the PF and Flop action. What 2 card club combination is likely given all his donk calling of the raising going on? It is much more likely that villian is donking 2 pair, trips, or some piece of the straight here.

Given the action I would say him donking with a hand like 9T, TJ, or TT is MUCH more likely than any of the 2 card club combinations you could present.

Reqtech

10-31-2005, 04:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What losing hand range can you reasonably put Villan on here? Our equity is a little higher, but the flop cap means we're very likely behind. It sounds to me like you're advocating a value-bet with a 4.5-outer on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does reason have to do with any of this? This is .5/1 6 max, and I've seen far crazier holdings in similar hands than what some of you guys here seem to sure of. I wouldn't really be surprised to see a LAG with AK, AQ, AJ or TT.

Also, a turn bet protects your hand against overcards if you feel that CO will raise you.

lautzutao

10-31-2005, 04:29 PM

A pot this big, I think those guys are going to call anyway. I think raising is going to net you more buckeroos

MrWookie47

10-31-2005, 04:37 PM

For a player with those stats, 9/images/graemlins/club.gifX/images/graemlins/club.gif is definitely in his range. How often do you think someone donks this river without a straight or better?

DCWildcat

10-31-2005, 04:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as SB having the Flush, look at the PF and Flop action. What 2 card club combination is likely given all his donk calling of the raising going on? It is much more likely that villian is donking 2 pair, trips, or some piece of the straight here.

Given the action I would say him donking with a hand like 9T, TJ, or TT is MUCH more likely than any of the 2 card club combinations you could present.

[/ QUOTE ]

A9s? A3s? "Given the flop and turn action" means very little with 68 VP$IP. And that's a highass aggro factor for someone not betting/raising with the two pair you describe.
Those stats indicate a player who wouldn't be adverse to calling on nothing more than a backdoor flush anyway. I think the probability of him hitting a flush is pretty damn high here.

I slow down on the turn, and call the river.

Nfinity

10-31-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as SB having the Flush, look at the PF and Flop action. What 2 card club combination is likely given all his donk calling of the raising going on? It is much more likely that villian is donking 2 pair, trips, or some piece of the straight here.

Given the action I would say him donking with a hand like 9T, TJ, or TT is MUCH more likely than any of the 2 card club combinations you could present.

[/ QUOTE ]

A9s? A3s? "Given the flop and turn action" means very little with 68 VP$IP. And that's a highass aggro factor for someone not betting/raising with the two pair you describe.
Those stats indicate a player who wouldn't be adverse to calling on nothing more than a backdoor flush anyway. I think the probability of him hitting a flush is pretty damn high here.

I slow down on the turn, and call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So because of villians insanely wierd stats we don' put it past him to call 3-bets cold pre-flop with some 9xs garbage, call another 2 bets cold with middle pair and a backdoor flush draw, but when it comes to doing something like donkbetting 2 pair or trips on this river it just can't be done?

The only flush cards I can reasonably place him on are A9s, A3s, K9s, K3s, and 93s in clubs, and you have to admit wook that the majority of those hands are a stretch. I've seen 80% VPIP's who wouldn't call this 3-bet with A3s.

Not to mention I think this player would donkbet this river all day long with anything better than 1 pair. I think the donkbetter here is weaker than he wants us to believe. He could have a flush here a small percentage of the time, but then the question is, how likely is he to 3-bet.

What do you think Wookie? He's too timid to Check raise the his miracle river nuts, but he will find the strength to 3-bet us?

aK13

10-31-2005, 08:17 PM

I wouldn't bet the turn.

Duerig

10-31-2005, 09:28 PM

After villain caps the flop, I assume that I'm behind his range. I check-call the turn.