Sig Sauer P226 9mm [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

10-31-2005, 01:01 PM

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Breaking news: you don't need a gun. That is all.

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Breaking news:You don't need oxygen. That is all.

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Breaking news: no one is out to get you. Ditch the gun and increase your life expectancy. That is all.

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I was up to my knees in rice patties . . . while pussies like you were home wearing headbands, smoking pot, listening to the goddamn Beatles albums . . . AHH! AHH! AHH!

<font color="white">I just rewatched "Back to School" this weekend </font>

10-31-2005, 01:02 PM

I love the sigs. I am a police officer and it is what I carry. However, I do recommend the P228 or P229.

The 9mm P228 is a little smaller and easier to handle. The 226 can carry more rounds but non-law enforcement/military are not allowed to carry magazines with more than 10 rounds anyway so in my opinion the 226 is not necessary.

If for some reason a 9mm is not enough firepower for you, then I recommend the P229. It is a .357 semi-auto that is the same size as the 9mm with more firepower.

Sigs are very expensive. They are worth the price but it is a high price. If you are just looking for something to shoot recreationally, look for something cheaper or just rent one at a range. Shooting is fun (great stress reliever!) and is constitutionally protected, but if you get a gun take safety glasses!

If you are lookng for something for personal/home defense, I am not gonna get into a 2nd ammendement debate here but as a law enforcement officer, I can tell you your money is better spent on other means (Martial Arts, Alarm System, etc.) Unless you face some specific threat AND have the training, a gun is not going to help.

Yes, I know the right to bear arms is protected...but remember, you are also protected from self-incrimination...Don't put yourself in a position where you need protection from either!

wacki

10-31-2005, 01:02 PM

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Breaking news: no one is out to get you. Ditch the gun and increase your life expectancy. That is all.

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Ya, this has worked very well in washington DC. Leave this thread and move to politics please. A simple search will show you that the stats show crime decreases when citizens are armed. But we are hijaking this thread. This is a no politics zone ya pansy!

swede123

10-31-2005, 01:03 PM

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Dear [censored],

I'm sorry my thread is not going well. Please do not ban me.

Humbly,
Subfallen

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Don't worry about [censored] , he's going Thoreau on us and in comparison moderating this cesspool probably won't seem very significant.

Swede

wacki

10-31-2005, 01:03 PM

The sig is a very good gun. I suggest you go to a gun club and try a bunch out. Guns are like shoes. You need to know which one fits you best.

swede123

10-31-2005, 01:06 PM

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non-law enforcement/military are not allowed to carry magazines with more than 10 rounds anyway so in my opinion the 226 is not necessary.

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I hope the average police officer has a better grasp of the law than you, my friend.

Swede

10-31-2005, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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Breaking news: no one is out to get you. Ditch the gun and increase your life expectancy. That is all.

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Ya, this has worked very well in washington DC. Leave this thread and move to politics please. A simple search will show you that the stats show crime decreases when citizens are armed. But we are hijaking this thread. This is a no politics zone ya pansy!

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Just trying to save someone's life. But I will cease.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 01:10 PM

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Shooting is fun (great stress reliever!) and is constitutionally protected, but if you get a gun take safety glasses!

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Classes are good too.

tonypaladino

10-31-2005, 01:15 PM

How much does a cheap handgun cost?

I've been thinking about getting one for a while.
I live in NY, would it be cheaper to drive somewhere and get a legal one or find a "special deal" around here?

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 01:17 PM

swede123

10-31-2005, 01:17 PM

If you want a cheap, starter type handgun look at Ruger. You can get a Ruger P95 for about 200 bucks. This is a 9mm, quality semi-automatic. You can find even cheaper stuff, but then the quality starts to deteriorate. Also, consider looking a slightly used handgun, this will usually save a hundred bucks or so compared to a new model.

Added... If you live in NY city you pretty much can't legally own a handgun as a civilian. Sucks but that's how it is.

Swede

Subfallen

10-31-2005, 01:18 PM

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The sig is a very good gun. I suggest you go to a gun club and try a bunch out. Guns are like shoes. You need to know which one fits you best.

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Cool, will do. Mostly I just want to develop into a good marksman, and from my preliminary research the P226 sounds like a very accurate gun to learn on.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 01:20 PM

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If you want a cheap, starter type handgun look at Ruger. You can get a Ruger P95 for about 200 bucks. This is a 9mm, quality semi-automatic. You can find even cheaper stuff, but then the quality starts to deteriorate. Also, consider looking a slightly used handgun, this will usually save a hundred bucks or so compared to a new model.

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Revolvers are usually cheaper though. There decent used revolvers that aren't too expensive.

swede123

10-31-2005, 01:22 PM

If you want to primarily use this gun for target practice you should also consider getting a .22. These guns are incredibly cheap to shoot and excellent for developing your skills without any recoil. Also, most quality guns come with conversion kits that lets you put a .22 barrel onto your 9mm. This combines the best of the two worlds really, and it's something you should think about.

Swede

cwsiggy

10-31-2005, 01:22 PM

Apparently if you live in Florida, you can now blow anyone away for fun if they enter your house! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 01:23 PM

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Apparently if you live in Florida, you can now blow anyone away for fun if they enter your house! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Why would someone enter my house unless they were invited or doing something they deserve to get shot for?

edit: nevermind. this belongs in politics.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 01:25 PM

Anyone know what a Ruger SP101 goes for these days? Anyone own one? I considered one awhile back but never followed up.

cwsiggy

10-31-2005, 01:27 PM

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Why would someone enter my house unless they were invited or doing something they deserve to get shot for?

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I was kidding, but you knew that.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 01:28 PM

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Why would someone enter my house unless they were invited or doing something they deserve to get shot for?

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I was kidding, but you knew that.

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Your avatar creeps me out. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

10-31-2005, 01:31 PM

Sorry Swede, I forgot the ban expired on 9/31/04. And yes, I realize that it didn't include magazines manufactured before the ban. I apologize for my error.

Subfallen

10-31-2005, 01:37 PM

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If you want to primarily use this gun for target practice you should also consider getting a .22. These guns are incredibly cheap to shoot and excellent for developing your skills without any recoil. Also, most quality guns come with conversion kits that lets you put a .22 barrel onto your 9mm. This combines the best of the two worlds really, and it's something you should think about.

Swede

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Sweet, thx Swede.

HDPM

10-31-2005, 02:06 PM

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The sig is a very good gun. I suggest you go to a gun club and try a bunch out. Guns are like shoes. You need to know which one fits you best.

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Cool, will do. Mostly I just want to develop into a good marksman, and from my preliminary research the P226 sounds like a very accurate gun to learn on.

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Not sure what you mean by expert marksman. What i don't like about the sig is the DA/SA action with the decocker. It has a few advantages for carry. However, you will need some training right off and you will need to put a lot of rounds through it to get a technique down for safety. Once you do that then you are looking at learning the DA/SA trigger for accuracy, which is a skill in itself. Not the one I would pick, but I look at pistols differently. I don't view them as something for precision marksmanship. The sig is a pistol for combat. Combat involves learning how to put rounds on target well enough and quickly enough with the goings on of a violent confrontation. Standing there punching paper is't what I look at in a pistol. The sig isn't a target gun, so I am not sure what you want. And for a first pistol I would pick a different trigger system. That's just me tho. YMMV. Get training in any event and practice with what you decide on. Did people say get training? Don't put any holes where they don't belong.

ScottyP431

10-31-2005, 02:14 PM

Someone already mentioned the 228, it's normally cheaper/easier to get worked on/upgraded since it was a standard FBI issue for some time. Upgradeability could be an important factor if you are looking to become and expert marksman. I assume the other 9mm you would consider are like the beretta 92 or glock 17? Of the three i prefer the glock

Voltron87

10-31-2005, 02:17 PM

ive never fired a gun. ever. im looking forward to it.

TiK

10-31-2005, 02:36 PM

I really like this gun. I loved how it felt in my hand and the weight distribution. I'm a fan.

10-31-2005, 02:49 PM

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If you live in NY city you pretty much can't legally own a handgun as a civilian. Sucks but that's how it is

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This is wrong.

Subfallen

10-31-2005, 02:51 PM

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Not sure what you mean by expert marksman. What i don't like about the sig is the DA/SA action with the decocker. It has a few advantages for carry. However, you will need some training right off and you will need to put a lot of rounds through it to get a technique down for safety. Once you do that then you are looking at learning the DA/SA trigger for accuracy, which is a skill in itself. Not the one I would pick, but I look at pistols differently. I don't view them as something for precision marksmanship. The sig is a pistol for combat. Combat involves learning how to put rounds on target well enough and quickly enough with the goings on of a violent confrontation. Standing there punching paper is't what I look at in a pistol. The sig isn't a target gun, so I am not sure what you want. And for a first pistol I would pick a different trigger system. That's just me tho. YMMV. Get training in any event and practice with what you decide on. Did people say get training? Don't put any holes where they don't belong.

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By "expert marksman", yeah, I meant "expert combat marksman"...so thus leaning towards a combat-tailored weapon.

swede123

10-31-2005, 02:51 PM

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If you live in NY city you pretty much can't legally own a handgun as a civilian. Sucks but that's how it is

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This is wrong.

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It is? I always thought the city gun ownership laws were extremely restrictive. Has it changed recently or has it always been this way?

Swede

10-31-2005, 02:54 PM

1. Get a Glock. And its not close.
2. Go to Gunsite (www.gunsite.com)

10-31-2005, 03:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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If you live in NY city you pretty much can't legally own a handgun as a civilian. Sucks but that's how it is

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This is wrong.

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It is? I always thought the city gun ownership laws were extremely restrictive. Has it changed recently or has it always been this way?

Swede

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NYC has a ridiculously bureaucratic process for civilian handgun licensing, but it exists. The city also has a shotgun/rifle permit process. I have both types of permit. Pistol here, (http://www.ci.nyc.ny.us/html/nypd/html/dclm/ldinfo.html) and rifle/shotgun division here (http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/dclm/ldphone.html)

Subfallen

10-31-2005, 03:08 PM

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1. Get a Glock. And its not close.
2. Go to <a href="www.gunsite.com" target="_blank">Gunsite</a>

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I'm sure I'll end up buying numerous sidearms. But why do the SEAL's use Sig's if Glocks own so hard?

Mars357

10-31-2005, 03:14 PM

I've been thinking about getting a concealed weapons permit and have spent a bit of time looking at different guns. Right now, this Glock (http://www.glock.com/g27.htm) is in the lead... thoughts?

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 03:16 PM

My favorite pistol for carry is the springfield armory xd sub compact. I think the Springfield XD is an underrated firearm that many people over look cause they are fixated on glocks.

ScottyP431

10-31-2005, 03:17 PM

I don't know the specific reason seals use P226's, but military decisions are often based on things like volume price, so I wouldn't necessarily base my decision on it.

Seals are also changing over tothe HK P9S i believe.

Mars357

10-31-2005, 03:22 PM

That looks pretty damn sweet! I'll have to see if the range has one I can fire. The light attachment option is pretty sweet too. Thanks for the insight!

Mars

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 03:24 PM

Just keep in mind that I reccommend the sub compact solely for carry ... in my mind it is too small for a everyday use unless you have very small hands. You can purchase an extended mag that will give you a little more room for your fingers but if you are really wanting a comfy everyday gun go with the full size version.

ScottyP431

10-31-2005, 03:25 PM

"everyday gun"

Don't know why, that just made me laugh. Awesome

Blarg

10-31-2005, 03:27 PM

Blarg

10-31-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
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The sig is a very good gun. I suggest you go to a gun club and try a bunch out. Guns are like shoes. You need to know which one fits you best.

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Cool, will do. Mostly I just want to develop into a good marksman, and from my preliminary research the P226 sounds like a very accurate gun to learn on.

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If you want to learn marksmanship, learn on a .22. They are very fun and easy to handle guns and the ammo is unbelievably cheap. You can shoot for hours at a completely trivial price. Shooting rimfires is cheap! Shooting regular big cartridges in regular big guns starts to become very expensive very quickly. Even if you eventually get many other guns, the .22 will still be fun, partly because they're so great for training pinpoint accuracy.

Ruger makes some excellent, very accurate .22's, including ones made for competition. There are other good ones around too. The gun magazines and yearly editions usually have write-ups that are well worth reading on all kinds of guns. Definitely worth a browse in a book shop/magazine stand, or the occasional buy.

When or if you get a bigger cartridge gun, don't go too overboard if you want it for home defense. Some of the bigger cartridges go through a lot of walls and can kill a neighbor. You only need enough power to protect yourself, not go on to kill your neighbor's daughter after a hit or miss. I think I've read that 9 mm. is great for this. It doesn't have the highest stopping power on the planet, but loses power quickly after piercig a thing or two.

Blarg

10-31-2005, 03:42 PM

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ive never fired a gun. ever. im looking forward to it.

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I've taken a number of people to the range for their first shooting experience ever, and every one has loved it, even the most gun-phobic and shaky of them. It's just plain flat out fun, and a real challenge that's easy to get into. Hard not to, really. I predict a good time! Definitely do it.

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 03:43 PM

I agree with this post ... if you are just learning to shoot or you want to put a lot of rounds through a gun to become more accurate than there is no substitue for an accurate .22 . Many people are awful shots because they learned how to shoot on a big gun and they developed lots of bad habits due to the fact they were trying to avoid the recoil. If you start with a .22 you develop great form and then later when you add the recoil in it wont be any issue at all.

cocked&locked

10-31-2005, 03:52 PM

Nice recommendation.

I have the P229 as well. This is a great gun. I agree with you that he should bump up from the 9mm. I like the idea of a 40 caliber better for self-defense though.

The P229 will give the OP a great compromise between a longer barreled gun with a nice sight radius and a smaller gun that can be concealed effectively if needed.

My Sig is extremely reliable and accurate and I have friends that echo this.

Edit: I just noticed that he is looking for practice for accuracy only. This post is primarily addressing a choice for self-defense.

10-31-2005, 03:57 PM

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But why do the SEAL's use Sig's if Glocks own so hard?

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Who cares. Why does LAPD SWAT use a Kimber 1911? Anyhow, you're not an operator. Get a Glock because:

1. They never break. Go find Chuck Taylor's articles about his torture tests on Glocks. This is confirmed by my own experience.

2. They always go bang when you pull the trigger. Again, based on my experience, which includes 75 days of training at Gunsite and other schools, in extremely harsh environments (e.g., 1000 rounds a day for 5 days, in dusty, windswept ranges)

3. The trigger is great. Consistent resistance up to the sear, a clean break, a positive reset point. Much better than the SIG, and easier to learn to shoot.

4. No decocker. Simpler and safer. Unless you train correctly to use a decocker, you can either de-cock in a "tactically unsound" manner, or you can possible reholster the gun in an unsafe condition.

5. Cheaper than SIG

Ray Zee

10-31-2005, 03:58 PM

i always get sucked into these gun posts. for target shooting get a target gun. period. for defense get a defensive gun. thats means different things to different people. to me in a handgun that is to protect your life i want one thing. that is for it to fire every time i pull the trigger. and that means no safety to find when i am fumbling with the gun in a situation that is life or death.
that leaves a revolver or a glock in my book.
i carry a glock 19 when i need lots of firepower(rounds). otherwise a revolver. my choice is 357 as its the best manstopper ever made with 125 grain bullets. as the bullets expends its energy inside the body cavity where it does the most good.
i carry a s&w 340 black titanium 357 12 ounce five shot gun in my back pocket for short jaunts.
in the woods its a 44 magnum s&w mountain revolver four ince barrel.
consider laser grips for instant sighting and shooting in the dark. then practice till you can do everything imaginable with your eyes closed including shooting and loading your weapon with either hand.

cocked&locked

10-31-2005, 04:00 PM

I've seen a ton on the Glock vs. Sig debate. My recommendation to you would be to handle each gun before purchasing it. My Sig fits my hand like a dream. Glocks are extremely uncomfortable in my hand. I also hate the trigger safety on Glocks

Supporters of each will tell you that his/her favorite is the best, but you just have to decide for yourself. I happen to think Sigs are better - which is why I bought one and passed on the Glock.

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 04:01 PM

I have too say that I have replaced the 44 with the new S&W 500 4".

Blarg

10-31-2005, 04:07 PM

Eyes closed is great training for anything physical.

P.S. on another subject, if it's defense you're after, a big dog is far more intimidating to most people than the idea that you may or may not have a gun. People can talk themselves into all kinds of things, but fear of a deep-throated bark and growl and being torn up by an animal is pure, down home visceral stuff that can't be shaken out of your system. And it's just as good at protecting your stuff and your loved ones when you're not home as when you are. Makes a hell of an alarm system, too.

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 04:08 PM

I find the cycling of the action on a pump shotgun does a much better job.

10-31-2005, 04:08 PM

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If you want to learn marksmanship, get competent instruction

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FYP. Shooting does not lend itself to a do-it-yourself learning process. At least if you want to learn safe and tactically sound techniques.

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get a .22

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This is bad advice. Get the gun you plan to use to defend yourself with, and train with it.

Plinking guns like the Ruger Mark II are very different from a "self defense gun" and its controls (magazine release, safety, slide stop, etc.) are all different. They are also, frankly, not well optimized for shooting.

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Some of the bigger cartridges go through a lot of walls and can kill a neighbor.

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Tons of myth and misinformation here. All handgun rounds will penetrate drywall and internal support. This is why shot placement is critical. To the extent that you're concerned about over-penetration, you should investigate ammunition like the Glaser Safety Slug. But for the most part, absent specialized environments like pressurized aircraft, a standard jacketed hollow point round will do the trick regardless of caliber.

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You only need enough power to protect yourself, not go on to kill your neighbor's daughter after a hit or miss.

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More flawed thinking. You are confusing shot placement with terminal ballistics. If you want to kill somebody, shoot them with the biggest caliber you can, as many times as possible, in the brain/center-of-mass, in as short a period of time as possible. The key is making your hits. Only hits count, and this has NOTHING to do with caliber.

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I think I've read that 9 mm. is great for this. It doesn't have the highest stopping power on the planet, but loses power quickly after piercig a thing or two.

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Another myth. 9mm is a fine caliber, as is .40, as is .45ACP, as is .38 Special. Making your hits is what kills people, not the terminal ballistics of the round. I personally like 9mm and .40 caliber, but not because of terminal ballistics. I like the fact that the magazines are higher capacity than .45 ACP. The ammunition is also cheaper.

10-31-2005, 04:11 PM

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for defense get a defensive gun. thats means different things to different people.

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As Clint Smith says, the reason to own a handgun is so you can shoot your way to your rifle.

CrazyEyez

10-31-2005, 04:15 PM

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i carry a s&w 340 black titanium 357 12 ounce five shot gun in my back pocket for short jaunts.
in the woods its a 44 magnum s&w mountain revolver four ince barrel.

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I love you.

This thread makes me want a gun.

Blarg

10-31-2005, 04:25 PM

Please, become a better poster before you do FYP. Better yet, skip it entirely.

You can indeed learn to shoot well on a .22. It's asinine to suggest otherwise.

This doesn't mean that instruction isn't a good idea, but that has nothing to do with a "fixing" of what I said. Jeez, take your head out of your ass.

Your whole post was entirely ass. Instead of being a smart aleck jerk, you should say something like, I have additional points to make, not pretend your points are in contradiction to someone else's. In the brief time I've seen you posting, you have completely sucked and it's only getting worse.

Try something like this next time, in addition to going to hell:

Training helps also. Shot placement helps also. Etc. etc. Not that these points aren't completely frigging obvious! Please, whatever you've got a hard-on for, don't make it me. Stand up on your own two feet when you want to make a post.

I can't even begin to properly express my disgust at your posting and whole attitude, so I'll end this post now.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 04:28 PM

So for those that have spent some time shooting, what kind of technique do you use? Have you actually had training or self-taught? Instructors/schools you think are good?

10-31-2005, 04:29 PM

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I find the cycling of the action on a pump shotgun does a much better job.

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Reminds me of a story.

I'm in my 2nd story apartment reading when I hear some scuffling outside my door. I look out the window and see some black guy out on my balcony that I don't know. I grab my Glock 21, walk up to the door and loudly chamber a round. Look out the window and blacky is hustling down the stairs.

Subfallen

10-31-2005, 04:29 PM

Yikes, looks like I have a lot of reading up to do here on training methodology and choice of weapon...any suggestions of specific books/manuals/periodicals/whatever?

Also, I'm so happy that Ray Zee replied to my thread. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Wintermute

10-31-2005, 04:29 PM

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in the woods its a 44 magnum s&w mountain revolver four ince barrel.

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Ray, why a 4-in barrel? for convenience's sake, ie quick draw? my 44mag has 7.5-in barrel:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/pfriedbe/170181_large.jpg

i'm wondering if you think the long-range accuracy improvement is worth the trouble of digging it out of a pack/holster.

To the OP, if you're going to get a Sig, I definitely suggest you try to fire the GSR before you drop a significant wad on a lower caliber gun... the GSR is a bit more expensive (esp ammo), but it's by far the best gun I've ever fired.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a283/pfriedbe/GSR.jpg

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 04:30 PM

I grew up shooting with my dad so I have never had any formal training but he made me do lots of safety related stuff before I even got to put my hands on a loaded gun.

Ray Zee

10-31-2005, 04:35 PM

if you tend to shoot over a hundred yards for hunting or target shooting then a longer sighting plane is worth it easily. but not for any kind of defense. plus weight is a key factor as you have to lug all that metal with you. and if it is heavy you usually dont bring it and it shoots poorly from home when you are not there.

Blarg

10-31-2005, 04:38 PM

Ray Zee is the man.

As another poster suggested, Gunsite is a very well respected name in the biz. I'm sure any number of local gunstores could point you to places you could get lessons. And some regular ranges will give lessons, too. To really learn defensive stuff well, you'll definitely want some courses.

Personally, I like the stuff written by Massad Ayoob. I forget which magazine he writes for now, but he sometimes writes for a couple simultaneously. He writes lots of articles about home defense and notable gun confrontations, and the legal results and what hapened next kind of thing. Very good advice and analysis, it seems to me. He also has some books at Amazon.com that look worth checking out.

There is a fair amount of arguing over what types of shooting styles are best, so you could easily find what appear to be reasonable people arguing over them. Maybe the occasional bitchiness like you get among people with varying theories sometimes. But good ideas shouldn't be hard to find.

After you get used to your gun, you might seriousl consider trying to find a competent gunsmith to accurize your gun, get yourself grips you like better, whatever. Some guns won't need it, some will, and maybe you'll just like something for your own reasons, like laser sights or whatever.

Blarg

10-31-2005, 04:40 PM

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I grew up shooting with my dad so I have never had any formal training but he made me do lots of safety related stuff before I even got to put my hands on a loaded gun.

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Me too. I'm constantly amazed at both the idiots you see waving pistols around in every direction, loaded or not, at ranges, and at the range personnel who let them get away with it.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 04:41 PM

I'd also recommend anyone interested in gunfighting read Jeff Cooper.

[i]edit: No. Everyone should read Jeff Cooper. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873649737/104-7017253-6928708?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance) Period.

Wintermute

10-31-2005, 04:43 PM

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plus weight is a key factor as you have to lug all that metal with you. and if it is heavy you usually dont bring it and it shoots poorly from home when you are not there.

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My 629 is 52 oz, a common 4" large-frame (625 model) is 43 oz. So I'm not really concerned w/ weight, it's virtually the same. More the size/shape that could be problematic.

As usual, the obvious solution for me is to buy another gun. Sweet.

10-31-2005, 05:05 PM

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Instructors/schools you think are good?

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Gunsite--great training

Thunder Ranch--ditto

Max Joseph, TFTT/DAG--excellent, though strong military operations emphasis. Also excellent classes in optical rifle, and outdoor fieldcraft.

Scotty Reitz, ITTS--excellent. Background as LAPD Metro/SWAT operator, but modifies curriculum well to military, civilian, and police students.

Jeff Gonzales, Trident Concepts--former SEAL operator. Excellent instructor, some unique doctrines not emphasized as much by others, e.g., importance of learning strong-hand only shooting, shooting on the move, etc.

Greg Hamilton, Insights--excellent. Good instructor for improving technique, particularly speed. Also a good tactical instructor. Comes from Army SF background.

Andy Stanford, Options for Personal Security--meh. Not bad, not great. Kind of a Greg Hamilton lite. Some very unconventional techniques that I dont like/think are unsafe, etc. Pretty good teacher.

John Farnham--save your money. Windbag, and not a good instructor. For some reason, people like him, but I found his class very tiresome.

Gabe Suarez--ok. Former Santa Monica PD. Some controvery about his bona fides and character (he was charged with felony theft of services and left the PD, but settled on a misdemeanor and was briefly incarcerated). Wouldnt be my first choice, but he is a good teacher.

Tim Bulot--excellent. Former PD/SRT background. Strong background in executive protection. Very good at combining CQB defensive tactics with weapons. Instructors are generally good, although there has been some turnover and I dont know the new ones at all.

Paul Howe--havent taken a course from him, but he's reputed to be excellent. Former Delta operator, specializes in military training, but also teaches some civilians.

Walt Marshall--former Oakland PD/warrant squad. Good, solid, Gunsite type training.

Pat Rogers--former NYPD and USMC. Very popular instructor, specializes in AR-15. Dont personally like him much. Talks too much and not a very clear instructor.

Louis Awerbuck--the leading instructor on shotgun. Excellent, soft spoken, been there-done that. Biggest weakness is as a classroom instructor. Biggest strength is seeing the flaws in a student's technique and giving individualized feedback on improving technique.

Bill Jeans--excellent, former Gunsite chief of operations.

Ken Goode--the authority on low light shooting. Not sure if he teaches civilians. Used to be affiliated with Surefire Institute, but is on his own now. Former SEAL.

HTH.

10-31-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Massad Ayoob.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ayoob is one of the "big name" instructors I havent taken a class from. His emphasis is on legal aspects related to shootings, and he frequently testifies as an expert for the defense in officer-involved shootings. His LFI-1 course is considered the "entry" level class for deadly force education, and I know a few people who have taken it. Personally, I think the judicious use of deadly force is an issue that doesn't take a whole lot of time to explain, so I dont see how Ayoob manages to stretch it into a 3 day class. But it is supposedly an OK class. Not likely to be as "technique" oriented as classes offered at other schools like Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc.

10-31-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
plus weight is a key factor as you have to lug all that metal with you. and if it is heavy you usually dont bring it and it shoots poorly from home when you are not there.

[/ QUOTE ]
My 629 is 52 oz, a common 4" large-frame (625 model) is 43 oz. So I'm not really concerned w/ weight, it's virtually the same. More the size/shape that could be problematic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great advice from Ray. Better to have a S&W J-frame .38 snubby in your pocket during a gunfight, instead of the full-size 1911 Kimber Commander model in the safe at home.

Carrying a gun, spare ammunition, flashlight, etc., is a real pain. Get something you wont mind carrying on a regular basis.

10-31-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find the cycling of the action on a pump shotgun does a much better job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of a story.

I'm in my 2nd story apartment reading when I hear some scuffling outside my door. I look out the window and see some black guy out on my balcony that I don't know. I grab my Glock 21, walk up to the door and loudly chamber a round. Look out the window and blacky is hustling down the stairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Unless in a car, shotguns should be carried in Condition 1 (locked & loaded, safety on). The old "racking the slide" routine is unnecessary and tactically unsound.

2. In the future, dont approach the door if you know an intruder is on the other side. Distance is your friend. Find hard cover, point in on the door, and announce that you have a gun and have called 911. Also, pistols should also be carried in Condition 1

3. "Blacky" isnt a nice term. You're an idiotic bigot.

10-31-2005, 05:17 PM

To become a marksman you definitely need someone to train and critique you. You can shoot all day and yes you will get better. But unless someone tells you that you are not shooting accurately because you jerk the trigger, or are closing your eyes, or are anticpating the "bang" - and then tell you how to correct it, you will not be consistent shot.

As far as good schools go, I've only been to official academies. When I was in the D.C. area I used to shoot at Gilbert Small Arms Range in Springfield. Very good range, nice people, and I hear their instructors are very good.

HopeydaFish

10-31-2005, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Correct first handgun?

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends on how many people you are hoping to kill with it.

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 05:20 PM

nobody is debating the way guns should be carried but there is no way you can deny that a pump shotgun is one of the most frightening sounds known to man.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To become a marksman you definitely need someone to train and critique you. You can shoot all day and yes you will get better. But unless someone tells you that you are not shooting accurately because you jerk the trigger, or are closing your eyes, or are anticpating the "bang" - and then tell you how to correct it, you will not be consistent shot.

As far as good schools go, I've only been to official academies. When I was in the D.C. area I used to shoot at Gilbert Small Arms Range in Springfield. Very good range, nice people, and I hear their instructors are very good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't necessarily looking for recs for myself. I was just curious which instructors/techniques people have learned that they use. I learned at Marine Security Guard School with some pretty good anti-terrorism instructors. Interesting you mention jerking the trigger. My shooting is pretty standard (push-pull, isoscelese) except I use a two finger trigger pull.

10-31-2005, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nobody is debating the way guns should be carried but there is no way you can deny that a pump shotgun is one of the most frightening sounds known to man.

[/ QUOTE ]

You give away your tactical advantage by racking the slide. As I said, find hard cover, maximize distance, give a verbal warning, and shoot the bad guy the second that he decides to keep coming through your front door.

joshman1204

10-31-2005, 05:28 PM

Dude you are a dumb ass!!!!

we arent talking about "tactical advantage" or any of that BS ... all i said was that the sound of a pump shotgun is scary as hell.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 05:31 PM

Does anyone else have the dominant eye problem where you dominant eye and hand are opposite? If so, do you still shoot with both eyes open? I find craning my head way over is the onlt thing I can do. Anyone else? Suggestions?

10-31-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find the cycling of the action on a pump shotgun does a much better job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of a story.

I'm in my 2nd story apartment reading when I hear some scuffling outside my door. I look out the window and see some black guy out on my balcony that I don't know. I grab my Glock 21, walk up to the door and loudly chamber a round. Look out the window and blacky is hustling down the stairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Unless in a car, shotguns should be carried in Condition 1 (locked & loaded, safety on). The old "racking the slide" routine is unnecessary and tactically unsound.

2. In the future, dont approach the door if you know an intruder is on the other side. Distance is your friend. Find hard cover, point in on the door, and announce that you have a gun and have called 911. Also, pistols should also be carried in Condition 1

3. "Blacky" isnt a nice term. You're an idiotic bigot.

[/ QUOTE ]
STFU whitey. My play was correct, and the would be intruder (maybe) learned that messing around in the vicinity of that particular apartment could get deadly.

And chiding me for using a not nice word and then calling me an idiot just puts you on the same level. Hypocrite.

10-31-2005, 05:36 PM

Shoot from an iso stance instead of weaver.

Or close your dominant eye when you shoot.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shoot from an iso stance instead of weaver.

Or close your dominant eye when you shoot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm shooting from already. Yea, I know I could close the eye. I thought maybe there was a better alternative. I've learned to shoot a shotgun left-handed because of it. Never was a good left-handed pistolero though. Meh. I'll probably just keep doing it the way I do. I can shoot good enough to hit someone. It's more just the target thing I wouldn't mind getting better at. No biggie.

stickman

10-31-2005, 05:42 PM

I own the P228 with 13 shot magazine. I like it. Easy to use no jamming problems, and easier to clean.

B Dids

10-31-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Breaking news: you don't need a gun. That is all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like guns, I don't see a great reason for people to have guns. That said- they're legal here, nothing will change that, and gaying up a thread where people are talking about guns with anti-gun zealotry is pointless.

Please make better posting choices.

10-31-2005, 05:43 PM

Cross dominance is a real problem. While it is easy to adapt techniques "on the range" like closing one eye, the problem comes in when you are forced to do a tactical activity like "slicing the pie". If you can learn to shoot with your weak hand, it would be a significant improvement.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cross dominance is a real problem. While it is easy to adapt techniques "on the range" like closing one eye, the problem comes in when you are forced to do a tactical activity like "slicing the pie". If you can learn to shoot with your weak hand, it would be a significant improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea. This is why I've always chosen to just keep the eye open and compensate by leaning my head over far enough to use my dominat eye. Not pretty but it gets the job done well enough. You're right though, I should've just learned to shoot southpaw. Just never took the time to unlearn too much shooting the other way.

benfranklin

10-31-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about getting a concealed weapons permit and have spent a bit of time looking at different guns. Right now, this Glock (http://www.glock.com/g27.htm) is in the lead... thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people either love or hate Glocks. They have a unique feel and trigger. Do not buy one without test shooting.

jakethebake

10-31-2005, 05:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Most people either love or hate Glocks. They have a unique feel and trigger. Do not buy one without test shooting.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. I have small hands, but they feel good anyway for some reason. Also, they may not the best for concealed carry because the staggered magazine tends to make them bulky.

Wintermute

10-31-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cross dominance is a real problem. While it is easy to adapt techniques "on the range" like closing one eye, the problem comes in when you are forced to do a tactical activity like "slicing the pie". If you can learn to shoot with your weak hand, it would be a significant improvement.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea. This is why I've always chosen to just keep the eye open and compensate by leaning my head over far enough to use my dominat eye. Not pretty but it gets the job done well enough. You're right though, I should've just learned to shoot southpaw. Just never took the time to unlearn too much shooting the other way.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have same problem, shoot right hand/left eye, just tilt my head and close the right eye, w/ Weaver stance. Haven't had a problem yet... I don't understand why it's awkward for you, the eyes aren't that far apart. I did experiment w/ left hand and seems to be less reliable.

Blarg

10-31-2005, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else have the dominant eye problem where you dominant eye and hand are opposite? If so, do you still shoot with both eyes open? I find craning my head way over is the onlt thing I can do. Anyone else? Suggestions?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do. I used to be pretty ambidextrous but now am mostly right handed. But my left eye is still dominant and is also sharper. For years I shot pistols right handed and rifles(and shot pool, bows etc.) left-handed.

benfranklin

10-31-2005, 06:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How much does a cheap handgun cost?

I've been thinking about getting one for a while.
I live in NY, would it be cheaper to drive somewhere and get a legal one or find a "special deal" around here?

[/ QUOTE ]

If I was looking for the cheapest good (i.e., not going to blow up in my hand) gun, I'd probably look for a good used revolver, most likely an older Smith & Wesson. Probably in the $200 range.

You cannot legally buy a hand gun any place other than in your state of residence. Requirements vary from state to state. The federal law allows a sale between private parties without background checks or any paper work. The seller is supposed to check that the buyer is a resident of the state. I suspect the NY state laws are a tad more restrictive than that.

If you buy from a dealer, at a minimum the dealer will run a background check. Many states require a purchase permit, issued by the sheriff of your county of residence.

benfranklin

10-31-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
for defense get a defensive gun. thats means different things to different people.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Clint Smith says, the reason to own a handgun is so you can shoot your way to your rifle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clint Smith is my hero. On 60 Minutes sometime back, he was asked why some cities were sending cops to his school for sniper training. He said because there are some people who just need to be shot.

slamdunkpro

11-01-2005, 11:31 AM

SIGs are great as long as you aren't left handed. (Every time I pulled the trigger the damn magazine fell out!)

I’m more old fashioned and like a SA auto, my everyday carry is:

Custom Browing Hi-Power (9mm)
http://www.slamdunkpro.com/Resources/Hi_Power.jpg

And where something with more wallop is needed:
http://www.slamdunkpro.com/Resources/29.jpg

3 inch Mag-Na_Ported SW 29 (.44 mag)

Favorite Glock story (I like Glocks – I just thought this was amusing)

When the DC police started using Glocks there were 3 instances of shootings at home by the officers. Turned out that when you put the Glock in the original plastic storage case, there was a stud that would disengage the trigger safety and depress the trigger in order to hold the pistol securely. These idiots were putting their pistols away loaded, thus discharging the weapon.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Custom Browing Hi-Power (9mm)
http://www.slamdunkpro.com/Resources/Hi_Power.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I love these. They seem to have kind of fallen by the wayside with all the new stuff out, but they're awesome guns. Very reliable, and I love the way they shoot.

joshman1204

11-01-2005, 11:37 AM

I know two officers who accidentally discharged a glock shortly after their departments switched to them. Luckily one of them just barely grazed his leg and the other hit his fot but no serious injuries.

Voltron87

11-01-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ive never fired a gun. ever. im looking forward to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've taken a number of people to the range for their first shooting experience ever, and every one has loved it, even the most gun-phobic and shaky of them. It's just plain flat out fun, and a real challenge that's easy to get into. Hard not to, really. I predict a good time! Definitely do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah im looking forward to it. i would add that if i grew up in state not so full of gay people i definitely would have fired a gun by now.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know two officers who accidentally discharged a glock shortly after their departments switched to them. Luckily one of them just barely grazed his leg and the other hit his fot but no serious injuries.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell is wrong with these policemen? Did they issue them with no training?

joshman1204

11-01-2005, 11:44 AM

Well when you go from years of always leaving a gun loaded to now having to empty the chamber before storing the gun.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well when you go from years of always leaving a gun loaded to now having to empty the chamber before storing the gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or just don't store it in that stupid plastic box. I store my Glock loaded with a round in the pipe.

I do use one of these though. If I need to fire, it just pops right out.

http://members.aol.com/saftblok/stealth4.gif

Peter666

11-01-2005, 12:54 PM

You can train yourself to be right eye dominant. I did so by putting scotch tape over the left lens of my glasses. This was recommended to me by German target shooters and is done by some top notch IPSC shooters as well.

It is much easier to do this then to learn to shoot from your non-dominant hand.

But if you are shooting in a self defence situation, this is not even a consideration because your body will naturally react in the best way it thinks possible. I doubt many "weaver" or "isosceles" shooters have undergone much stress induced training. To learn to fight well, you MUST do this. If possible, a simple technique is to do as many pushups as fast as you can and then immediately fire into the target. This gives a bit of the blood pressure experience you will face in a life and death situation. Your main concern will be to just keep the gun from bobbing up and down while firing the trigger.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But if you are shooting in a self defence situation, this is not even a consideration because your body will naturally react in the best way it thinks possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about this tape over the glasses thing. I always thought cross-domination was just something you were stuck with, but I can't really comment. However, the quoted statement is just wrong. It is a big deal. Your body will react the way it has been trained to react. If you can't hit anything because you're shooting out of the wrong eye, it won't sudennly change when someone is shooting back at you.

Peter666

11-01-2005, 04:51 PM

I have not been in a firefight myself, but I have extensively trained and trained others, and I know several people who have been in a real gunbattle.

"Your body will react the way it has been trained to react"

This is not true. When taken by surprise, the body will do some very strange things. If allowed to prepare, THEN you will do what you have been trained to do. But I have seen guys who have trained extensively in certain techniques who froze or did something incredibly stupid once put under pressure.

A little example to illustrate my point: there was an instructor who trained with Remington shotguns and literally performed the safety discharge thousands of times. However, when he had to pull out his Remington in an altercation one day, a technique he practiced tons of times, he was looking for the thumb safety as found on Mossberg shotguns. He owned one Mossberg but only used it rarely for hunting on occasion. So basically, you don't know exactly what will happen. The focus must be on mental toughness, power of will to stay alive, and stress induced training. Not repetetive technique training. After-all, that's why a wrestler or a boxer can kick the butt of any black belt Karate ching chong whatever in a fight. They are mentally trained to win! Karate man can perform his Kata 10,000 times, but these techniques are almost useless on the street where everything goes into FLOW mode.

You will not be thinking about the fine points of the Improved Weaver, Weaver or Isosceles when called into action. You will be in whatever position you were caught in at the moment and firing away.

Peter666

11-01-2005, 04:56 PM

Your tactics are fine, but the racking shotgun can be an advantage by scaring off the intruder without resulting in a fight. I see no real disadvantage, unless you are doing covert activity and don't want the enemy to know that you are there to kill them.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"Your body will react the way it has been trained to react"

This is not true. When taken by surprise, the body will do some very strange things. If allowed to prepare, THEN you will do what you have been trained to do. But I have seen guys who have trained extensively in certain techniques who froze or did something incredibly stupid once put under pressure.

A little example to illustrate my point: there was an instructor who trained with Remington shotguns and literally performed the safety discharge thousands of times. However, when he had to pull out his Remington in an altercation one day, a technique he practiced tons of times, he was looking for the thumb safety as found on Mossberg shotguns. He owned one Mossberg but only used it rarely for hunting on occasion. So basically, you don't know exactly what will happen. The focus must be on mental toughness, power of will to stay alive, and stress induced training. Not repetetive technique training. After-all, that's why a wrestler or a boxer can kick the butt of any black belt Karate ching chong whatever in a fight. They are mentally trained to win! Karate man can perform his Kata 10,000 times, but these techniques are almost useless on the street where everything goes into FLOW mode.

You will not be thinking about the fine points of the Improved Weaver, Weaver or Isosceles when called into action. You will be in whatever position you were caught in at the moment and firing away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with most of what you say here. You're not talking about training. You're talking about learning. You can know something and not perform the action correctly under pressure. If you've truly trained to do it, then you'll do it right.

The mistake you're making with regards to kata is a common one. People don't understand the purpose of kata. The purpose is not just to learn a series of moves. The purpose is to achieve the state of mushin. If you can train yourself to enter this state (and kata is a way of doing this), then you will perform correctly. In this we agree. The mental state is important, and the physical training is only useless if you don't react mentally. But you won't react w/o the training as well because you won't know how to.

In other words, the training is what allows you to react rather than think. If you're stopping to think in a gunfight your [censored].

slamdunkpro

11-01-2005, 06:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In other words, the training is what allows you to react rather than think. If you're stopping to think in a gunfight your [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s called muscle memory.

BTW – A quick call to an Ophthalmologist friend confirms that eye dominance is “hard wired”. You can learn to compensate, but you can’t force one eye dominant over the other.

benfranklin

11-01-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

But if you are shooting in a self defence situation, this is not even a consideration because your body will naturally react in the best way it thinks possible. I doubt many "weaver" or "isosceles" shooters have undergone much stress induced training.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your body does not react the way it thinks is best, it reacts as best it can. As your heart rate increases, you lose complex and then fine motor skills. The greater the stress, the less able you are to react as you trained.

Weaver uses more fine motor skills. These skills disappear under stress. Training does not help maintain these skills. Isosceles uses more gross motor skills, but these also deteriorate under stress. Again, no training can overcome the loss of complex and fine motor skills under stress. You can only train to rely solely on the most basic gross motor skills.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In other words, the training is what allows you to react rather than think. If you're stopping to think in a gunfight your [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s called muscle memory.

BTW – A quick call to an Ophthalmologist friend confirms that eye dominance is “hard wired”. You can learn to compensate, but you can’t force one eye dominant over the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just muscle memory. It's much more than that. It's the mind's ability to take that muscle memory and adapt it.

Peter666

11-01-2005, 09:55 PM

Quit pushin your mushin. Actually, I agree, this is the state you want to be in. The weakness of the Oriental Martial arts is that they achieve this route through constant repetetive motion. It takes years and years to get to the point where you can be really good. The Philipino martial arts are much better in that you learn a few techniques and get into the flow aspect right away. And the Russian martial arts are best of all. You start with "mushin" and build technique after that.

A drunk guy in a bar often exhibits "mushin" by having no self consciousness about performing certain actions, although his body is not in the state to do anything about it.

The SAS have it right: He who dares, wins.

And to the Opthamologist guy, we may be hard wired in the beginning, but the eye, like any other thing with muscles, has the ability to be shaped and adapted. There is a book by Alduous Huxley called the "Art of Seeing" which should be read. I am near-sighted, and there are times when focusing a certain way, sometimes by accident, allows me to see clearly into the distance. By exercising this ability, I should restore my sight.

But the dominance thing I did right away, because I like to shoot! For target shooting it is much easier to train your eye then your hands.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It takes years and years to get to the point where you can be really good.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. It only takes years because people don't understand the goal. The majority of the instructors in this country, regardless of style, are a bunch of Rex Kwon Do wannabes.

[ QUOTE ]
A drunk guy in a bar often exhibits "mushin" by having no self consciousness about performing certain actions, although his body is not in the state to do anything about it.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you believe this, you don't understand the concept.

[ QUOTE ]
For target shooting it is much easier to train your eye then your hands.

[/ QUOTE ]
For target shooting why bother? Just close one eye.

11-01-2005, 10:47 PM

Where can I get a revolver that I can "fan"? Or how do I make one?

wacki

11-01-2005, 11:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Or just don't store it in that stupid plastic box. I store my Glock loaded with a round in the pipe.

I do use one of these though. If I need to fire, it just pops right out.

http://members.aol.com/saftblok/stealth4.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy cow, don't you have young kids? Don't be a lazy worthless [censored] and get a real lock box.

jakethebake

11-01-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Or just don't store it in that stupid plastic box. I store my Glock loaded with a round in the pipe.

I do use one of these though. If I need to fire, it just pops right out.

http://members.aol.com/saftblok/stealth4.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Holy cow, don't you have young kids? Don't be a lazy worthless [censored] and get a real lock box.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in a locked steel box.

tonypaladino

11-01-2005, 11:09 PM

I've decided to get a glock. I have "a guy" that can get it for me.

I sure as [censored] ain't paying close to $500 to get a permit to keep it in my house only.

joshman1204

11-01-2005, 11:21 PM

new york huh?

11-01-2005, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I sure as [censored] ain't paying close to $500 to get a permit to keep it in my house only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im no defender of the licensing regime here in NYC, but the way I see it, if I actually have to shoot somebody in self defense, the last thing I want to deal with is being arrested for felony possession of a firearm. I have a gun permit in NYC so that any justifiable homicide that I commit will remain unimpeachable.

Voltron87

11-01-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I sure as [censored] ain't paying close to $500 to get a permit to keep it in my house only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Im no defender of the licensing regime here in NYC, but the way I see it, if I actually have to shoot somebody in self defense, the last thing I want to deal with is being arrested for felony possession of a firearm. I have a gun permit in NYC so that any justifiable homicide that I commit will remain unimpeachable.

[/ QUOTE ]

beat me to it. whats the point? if you actually have to use it, have fun with your court case.

Peter666

11-02-2005, 12:46 AM

I don't mean a guy drunk out of his mind, but one who attains such confidence and awareness that his balls feel like boulders and he'll go up to the pretty girl he was too shy to approach while sober. That's mushin baby.

As for Target shooting, closing one eye causes strain and fatigue over a period of time that cuts down on your performance. Also, the reason you want scotch tape on your glasses and not something else is because scotch tape allows light to come through. While the vision in the covered eye is blocked, the light gathering aspect is not. This allows both eyes to work in tandem for improved depth of field vision, colour contrast and quicker focusing.

slamdunkpro

11-02-2005, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And to the Opthamologist guy, we may be hard wired in the beginning, but the eye, like any other thing with muscles, has the ability to be shaped and adapted. There is a book by Alduous Huxley called the "Art of Seeing" which should be read. I am near-sighted, and there are times when focusing a certain way, sometimes by accident, allows me to see clearly into the distance. By exercising this ability, I should restore my sight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, OK you're right - your science fiction writer condoning the Bates Method (1912) trumps my Board Certified Opthamologist.

Don't be late for your Frenology appointment and take your Enzyte!

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif