Commerce Huge Pot

[Ryno]

Commerce 100/200

A new player has brought life to what had been an ok-to-bad game. He is raising preflop most hands, then chasing to the river.

EP is pretty tight, maybe a little hot under the collar but not showing outward signs of tilt. MP is a regular and plays higher, I consider him to be very good. Nothing special about the BB.

EP openraises. MP cold calls. Loose guy 3bets right behind. Folded to me on the SB, I call with TT. BB calls. EP caps, all call. 5 to the flop for 10BB.

Flop is Ad3c4c. Checked to EP who bets, MP calls, Loosey calls, I see BB is going to just call so I call.

5 to the turn for 12.5BB.

Turn is the Td. Check-check-EP bets-MP calls-Loosey folds-I checkraise-EP 3bets-MP thinks for a long time and calls two more bets. I call.

3 to the river for 21.5BB.

River is the 6d, completing a backdoor flush draw. I check, EP bets, MP calls, and I call.

Comments appreciated on all streets...

[psyduck]

Preflop: anyone ever fold here with EP being "pretty tight" and MP coldcalling? is this a fold or cap position?

Flop call is amazingly close but I like it. If you had Tc that would be an auto-call, but without you're getting very close to the odds you need to spike a T on the turn.

Turn: cap that [censored]. with this many people calling it's probable that two people hold Ax rather than AA.

river: bet/3-bet

too aggressive?

[mike l.]

i would fold preflop and 4 bet the turn and i feel really good about those plays.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
i would fold preflop and 4 bet the turn and i feel really good about those plays.

[/ QUOTE ]
what he said, basically.

[mc1023]

Preflop call is fine since BB called as well, but if you had a feeling he's going to fold I think you should let this go preflop.

Flop, call is fine.

Turn, the fact that MP thinks for a long time and still calls two more bets feels like he has a big ace making it less likely EP spiked the case ace with AA. I would capp this turn, I can't see MP having anything else but a big ace since if he has a flush draw what is there to think about?? It would be an easy call.

I say with the way you played it, Donk the river.

I would consider folding this preflop. It seems like a fairly close call though. Also, cap turn.

[Ryno]

"Turn, the fact that MP thinks for a long time and still calls two more bets feels like he has a big ace making it less likely EP spiked the case ace with AA."

This is a good read and exactly what I was thinking about at the time. This guy was not calling a raise from a tight EP with 33 or 44. Frankly I can't figure out what hand he would have other than ATs.

[Ryno]

The turn play I understand was thin - I don't know, there was something about the pace of his bet, where his eyes were when MP was thinking, that made me not want to cap (basically he should have been worried about me, but he wasn't). I didn't want to write about how he's twisting his oreo or whatever because that would bias the responses.

I am surprised by the response to the preflop call, though. Are you guys calling Jacks there? Queens? Doesn't it matter that the fish made it 3bets? His range is like 30-40% there.

[rory]

Preflop, a fold seems right. The rest of the hand seems good. The EP guy probably should not be 3-betting the turn with less than two pair, and he can't really have two pair on that turn, so he probably has aces. Aces or AcKc are the two hands I put him on. MP probably has either ATs or 33 or 44. But there is only one combination of ATs he could have, since you have the rest of the Ts. 4-betting the turn and bet-calling the river is another option but the way you played it seems fine to me.

[mc1023]

[ QUOTE ]
I am surprised by the response to the preflop call, though. Are you guys calling Jacks there? Queens? Doesn't it matter that the fish made it 3bets? His range is like 30-40% there.

[/ QUOTE ]

The thing with TT is there are two more over cards compared to something like QQ. Your going to be stuck with the worst position on the flop with a hand that's very vulernable against 3 players that are in for 3 bets.

Really whether you had TT or something like 99 would make no different here IMO, your calling for set value. JJ in this spot will play similar to TT but it's slightly better.

I still think the EP tight raiser had something like AKd or AKc, Its hard to put him on aces here. I could see AKc or AKd 3betting that turn if he puts you on AT. So it's close between capping turn/leading river and calling 3bets/donking river on a blank.

From the point of when the action is back to you 3betted on the turn...

CAPPING turn would gain you 3-4 BB for 3BB, assuming that EP doesn't have AA. While you would lose 4BB if EP had AA.
CALLING 3bets on turn and check-calling river would gain you 1-3BB for 2BB, and cost you 2BB by the river if EP had AA.

This is all assuming that neither player draws out on your on the river. So looks like capping is still the right way to go to me because of the 3rd player in the pot.

Also, would EP get tricky with set of aces in this spot or would he bet it straight out and it's more likely they will put you on AT than TT here IMO.

[andyfox]

I once got reamed here also for calling preflop in a similar situation with T-T. I still think the hand is too good to fold given the players you have described, especially the 3-bettor. The fact that you got to see the turn card for just one small bet on the flop indicates that they might all go limp on the flop, and that too argues in favor of a preflop call.

The point others have made about the chances of being against A-A are diminished when more than one opponent is still in the hand is a good one, but you might make just as much here by letting them keep betting and just calling, without the risk of being murdered if you raise with the second best hand.

[mike l.]

"the hand is too good to fold"

if i had a dime for every time i heard this at the poker table id drive a nicer car than you andy.

folding is fun. folding to other people's raises and reraises is orgasmic. i so get off on it. i had the chance to correctly fold KK preflop in a limit game the other game and missed it. i was about 50% there. repeat after me: folding to other people's raises is good,

folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good.

[mike l.]

"The thing with TT"

the thing with TT is it is quickly demoted from very good starting hand to poo when you are facing a raise and a reraise. add in out of position and you can talk all day about set flopping equity (this is not directed at mc1023 whose analysis i like) it's spewage to call here preflop.

[Ryno]

EP had AA. MP mucked.

Thanks for the replies - looks like the consensus is that I blew this preflop. Regarding the turn, it was like rory said, he just shouldn't be threebetting with less than 2pair. A turn checkraise from me should have at least frozen the guy up a little bit but it didn't.

[fearme]

i still dont think a preflop call is bad, however there are good points to be made to lean toward folding,

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
"the hand is too good to fold"

if i had a dime for every time i heard this at the poker table id drive a nicer car than you andy.

folding is fun. folding to other people's raises and reraises is orgasmic. i so get off on it. i had the chance to correctly fold KK preflop in a limit game the other game and missed it. i was about 50% there. repeat after me: folding to other people's raises is good,

folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good,
folding to other people's raises is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

<Begin hijack>

I had a chance to incorrectly fold QQ preflop in a limit game the other day and TOOK it.

I would have flopped a set.

And rivered quads.

And tbh, I still don't know if my fold was good or bad.

Ask sparks.

<End hijack>