KK multiway tons of action -- Too much?

100nl 6 max, 6 handed. Crazy table, very loose and tons of action on every hand. Only even close to tight players are the ones who fold preflop here.

UTG: snillen ( $64.40 )
UTG+1: Hero ( $100 )
MP: spinout12 ( $108 )
Button: tage_gant ( $140.10 ) - Villain.
SB: DukeDukeDuke ( $33.31 )
BB: bentleyJHB ( $100 )

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="red">snillen raises to $2.
Hero reraises to $6.</font>
spinout12 folds.
tage_gant calls $6.
DukeDukeDuke calls $5.50.
bentleyJHB folds.
snillen calls $4.

Flop:
Pot: $25
4/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
DukeDukeDuke checks.
<font color="red">snillen bets $1. </font>(Has been doing this on just about every flop)
<font color="red">Hero reraises to $16.</font>
tage_gant calls $16.
DukeDukeDuke folds.
snillen folds.

Turn:
Pot: $58
4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks.
<font color="red">tage_gant bets $30.
Hero reraises to $78 and is all-in.</font>

Was this ok? Too aggressive?

[xorbie]

Raise to $25 on the flop. I probably play it the same later.

Not nearly aggressive enough on nearly every occasion, but I've been there before: You raise with a big pair and get more callers than you'd like.

Bump it to $8 or more pre-flop. There are too many laggy players who don't mind calling 4-6x pre-flop with any two cards, and you made it clear that you were aware the table had some loose players.

On the flop, you're not betting nearly enough. Do you really want to give opponents nearly 3 to 1 to improve? Remember, you have one pair and you're still against multiple opponents. I'd pot it and try to take it down right there.

On the turn, if you're willing to get it all in, do it right away. As you played it, you're giving villain 3.5 to 1 to make the call, and again, you have one pair. You only want to check-raise here if you have little doubt you're ahead and you believe it's the only way to get villain to commit the rest of his stack. If your check-raise was designed to knock him out, it's very unlikely to happen.

If your pre-flop raise with a big pair doesn't isolate, you've got to take control on the flop if you think you're ahead.

[mayesie]

If anything, I don't think you were aggressive enough during the pre-flop &amp; flop betting rounds. Since you know that your opponents like to stick around so much, re-raise to at least 10.00 pre-flop. Hopefully, 10.00 will be enough to reduce the field to one caller. If they still want to stick around, then figure out the amount that will make most of them lay down (12, 14, etc). This number varies as the session continues, so be sure to adjust accordingly.

At the flop, your main concern should be chasing out at least (2) of the (3) villains. IMO, a pot-sized raise gives you the best chance. With a pair of Kings, it's best to go up against (1) opponent to maximize your advantage.

Based on the info you provided, it's highly unlikely that I lay my Kings down on the turn. However, I hate the turn check because you're too vulnerable to offer a free river card. However, once your opponent bet the turn, I think you were justified in going all-in.

I really don't understand this mentality. KK is a very strong hand, and I'm a good enough player to lay it down if I'm lost on the flop. Isn't it better to have 3 callers with a 6xbb raise than one caller with a 10xbb raise?

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, if you're willing to get it all in, do it right away. As you played it, you're giving villain 3.5 to 1 to make the call, and again, you have one pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I have 2 pair, Kings and fours. I'm only really afraid of someone hitting a straight or a set. I doubt I am up again KT since I have 2 of them, and 9T isn't that likely with a big preflop raise either. I think QJ, KQ, AQ, QQ, JJ, are more likely. With those hands, I'm not in much danger of him hitting the river. Tell me if my logic is off here.

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't understand this mentality. KK is a very strong hand, and I'm a good enough player to lay it down if I'm lost on the flop. Isn't it better to have 3 callers with a 6xbb raise than one caller with a 10xbb raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. You'd much rather play a big pot heads up with KK than play against three opponents. I don't have PS at this computer, but KK against three random hands is far from bulletproof. The loose players at your table have demonstrated that they'll call sizeable pre-flop raises with marginal hands; isolate one of them with a stronger raise and go from there.

I agree that the second 4 on the turn is more likely to help your hand, but that's not the issue here. You're playing with fire if you allow that many opponents and you fail to charge them sufficiently on the flop and turn to improve their hand.

If you've got a loose table, I'm guessing they're the type of opponents who will get married to top pair. That's what you want with KK; you don't some junk straight or flush beating you when you give them the proper odds (and/or implied odds) to do so.

I really think 3 6xbb callers gets more EV than 1 10xbb caller. So what if my hand's not bulletproof? Anyone else's opinion on this matter?

[f2aler]

I think 3 callers at 6X is better than one at 10X. I personally take some serious signifigance of the fact he bet the turn. I'd be very wary, I'm guessing he flopped a set.

He did. He had QQ. Could I have gotten away from this?

[Kyriefurro]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't it better to have 3 callers with a 6xbb raise than one caller with a 10xbb raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just a question of value. It's a question of how likely your KK is to hold up. With three callers, the odds of you getting drawn out on are significantly higher. A larger PFR tends to discourage the goofballs who like to play 47s and such (yes, even lags will respect a big PFR). A bet of $8-10 here will also have a good chance of scaring off the small-medium pocket pairs, reducing the risk of someone hitting a small set.

[Kyriefurro]

I was guessing he had K4o hehe. Either way, though, I'm going to think long and hard when he calls my PFR, calls my raise on the flop, and then suddenly wakes up on the turn. Even if he's LAG. Smells like a slow-played monster to me.

The more people that play, the more you make, but the less likely you will win. For players who play well post flop, I can tell you that most likely they would like 3 players to call than 1 player. Who cares if they all call (you have sooooo much equity with KK).

[Kyriefurro]

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares if they all call (you have sooooo much equity with KK).

[/ QUOTE ]

Two thoughts:

1) While KK does have a lot of equity, that equity decreases significantly with each additional caller. Yes, you still have a large amount of equity against any given player, but eventually you end up with negative equity against the field as a whole. (According to Pokerstove, this occurs when the 4th caller enters the field.)

2) Not only will you loose more often, but you'll loose a lot more of your chips more often. When a lot of people call, the pot becomes bloated. When a PSB will cost you most or all of your stack, then how well you play post flop becomes irrelevant. Pot protection becomes impossible, and you have no way of denying your opponents the odds they need to call with most draws.

So, personally, I'd still rather play this heads-up or with 2 callers than with 3 or more.

[ QUOTE ]
So, personally, I'd still rather play this heads-up or with 2 callers than with 3 or more.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess its a personal preference. I welcome callers when I have AA or KK. Let me hit a set and see how much I collect.