Pocket Jacks with Multiple players in the pot [Archive]

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10-30-2005, 06:35 PM

I didn't raise preflop because I figured that with so many people already in the pot, my JJ would be easily beaten. What do u think?

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
CO checks, UTG Posts, 1 folds, CO calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (10.00 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (10 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, Hero folds, MP3 folds, CO caps, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (18.00 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 3-bets, MP1 calls, CO caps, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (33.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)

10-30-2005, 06:39 PM

Ugh. Raise PF. Against 9 other random hands PF, you have around 20% equity. You'll also win a huge pot the times you flop to your set.

MrWookie47

10-30-2005, 06:43 PM

Raise preflop. Good fold on the flop.

SoftcoreRevolt

10-30-2005, 07:03 PM

Raise preflop, equity edge and such.

10-30-2005, 07:15 PM

I agree with the raise preflop for the equity edge but also to try and get others behind you to fold. If you you can get the last 3 players to fold and buy the button you have just gained an enormous amount. Even if you get 1 or 2 out you have definitely gained.

TomBrooks

10-30-2005, 07:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't raise preflop because I figured that with so many people already in the pot, my JJ would be easily beaten. What do u think?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're worrying too much and that you will not do as well in the long run by limping JJ.

10-30-2005, 07:42 PM

Okay here's another pocket JJ this time played aggressively preflop. but i'm not sure i did great on the post flop...

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, 1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, 1 folds, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (29.00 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (17.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (17.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

TomBrooks

10-30-2005, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, 1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, 1 folds, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (29.00 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet the flop. If behind a Q, you have outs to a gutshot. Your set outs give any ten a straight so thats not so good. A raise, especially from Button or SB, could be a flush draw. Beware the made straight. This is a bad flop for you. If all hell breaks out, fold without 15:1 odds figuring three tens are good, and the Ten /images/graemlins/spade.gif is no good.

Aaron W.

10-30-2005, 08:32 PM

You should really start fewer posts and start responding to other posts. Also, the preflop action doesn't make any sense to me (both hands).

Edited because I drop words when I type for some reason.

numeri

10-30-2005, 08:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should really start fewer posts and start responding to other posts. Also, the preflop action makes no sense to me (both hands).

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. (on both comments)

10-30-2005, 10:59 PM

This hand raises a question that I have struggled with...

When I have medium pairs I tend to be scared off by any overcard on the flop. Particularly if there are 3 or 4 players to the flop (almost always the case at the lower limits).

Therefore my question is should a value pocket pairs 9 9, 10 10, J J, significantly less than I would in NL since multiple players will be around for most of the hand no matter what I do?

Aaron W.

10-31-2005, 01:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This hand raises a question that I have struggled with...

When I have medium pairs I tend to be scared off by any overcard on the flop. Particularly if there are 3 or 4 players to the flop (almost always the case at the lower limits).

Therefore my question is should a value pocket pairs 9 9, 10 10, J J, significantly less than I would in NL since multiple players will be around for most of the hand no matter what I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should value them more because players make more mistakes against them. I was at a home game with some friends the other night and someone made the comment about not being able to push bad draws out of the pot. I tried to explain in about 10 words why that was such a stupid idea (do you really want everyone else to be playing correctly?), but I don't know if they understood.

10-31-2005, 01:16 AM

grunch....

raise preflop

flop nice fold

@bsolute_luck

10-31-2005, 07:30 AM

none of these preflops make sense.

10-31-2005, 12:53 PM

Definitely raise this preflop, I am willing to 3bet JJ and sometimes even cap(depending on the table) preflop....
Also a preflop raise might get a limper or two to fold giving you a little better chance of having the best hand when you dont flop your set...

Hades18

10-31-2005, 01:38 PM

Raise PF. You do this b/c when a J lands, against this many opponents, you'll make a killing.

10-31-2005, 02:02 PM

Where do you play anyway? Can't remember seeing so many people calling anywhere.

10-31-2005, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand raises a question that I have struggled with...

When I have medium pairs I tend to be scared off by any overcard on the flop. Particularly if there are 3 or 4 players to the flop (almost always the case at the lower limits).

Therefore my question is should a value pocket pairs 9 9, 10 10, J J, significantly less than I would in NL since multiple players will be around for most of the hand no matter what I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should value them more because players make more mistakes against them. I was at a home game with some friends the other night and someone made the comment about not being able to push bad draws out of the pot. I tried to explain in about 10 words why that was such a stupid idea (do you really want everyone else to be playing correctly?), but I don't know if they understood.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this for me? It seems that my 10 10 losses more than half the time to someone who stuck around with an ace or a flush/straight draw. I mean isnt it a coin flip if the other player sees all 5 cards, which in micro-limits is very likely. And I am likely to be flipping with at least 2 people.

kiemo

10-31-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay here's another pocket JJ this time played aggressively preflop. but i'm not sure i did great on the post flop...

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 folds, UTG calls, 1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button raises, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, 1 folds, Button caps, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (29.00 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (17.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (17.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP3 folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think you understand how to post hands.

Either that or your playing some weird ante, blinds act first, and everyone else acts out of turn preflop version of hold'em

10-31-2005, 04:26 PM

Agreed, how do the SB and BB start off with checks preflop on the second hand?

Also, someone mentioned 20% equity with JJ, how do you know/find/calculate that for JJ and for other hands?

Aaron W.

10-31-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand raises a question that I have struggled with...

When I have medium pairs I tend to be scared off by any overcard on the flop. Particularly if there are 3 or 4 players to the flop (almost always the case at the lower limits).

Therefore my question is should a value pocket pairs 9 9, 10 10, J J, significantly less than I would in NL since multiple players will be around for most of the hand no matter what I do?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should value them more because players make more mistakes against them. I was at a home game with some friends the other night and someone made the comment about not being able to push bad draws out of the pot. I tried to explain in about 10 words why that was such a stupid idea (do you really want everyone else to be playing correctly?), but I don't know if they understood.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain this for me? It seems that my 10 10 losses more than half the time to someone who stuck around with an ace or a flush/straight draw. I mean isnt it a coin flip if the other player sees all 5 cards, which in micro-limits is very likely. And I am likely to be flipping with at least 2 people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, I'll explain this.

My first warning is the "it seems" phrase. You should really go through your records to see how your JJ-99 hands have really done. When you lose, what hands are beating you? Did they draw out on the turn or river, or were you beat from the start?

Thie idea that you are a coin flip is something you need to toss from your mind. You are a coin flip heads up in an all-in situation preflop. This isn't what happens in limit hold'em. You are often taking a flop with 3-5 (or more) other players with future rounds of betting to come.

Unlike NL, where the size of the future errors (by you or the opponent) are essentially infinite (as big as the stacks happen to be), the errors are only finite in limit hold'em. In NL you would often rather just win a small pot instead of getting yourself trapped for a gigantic loss when the other guy flops a monster (or conversely trap the other guy when you have a monster). In limit, you can only win so much with your hands. So when you put in bets/raises, you're doing so when you've got the best of it because if you wait, you may never be able to make up for those losses. (Which is why you'll see slowplaying advocated VERY RARELY around here.)

Preflop: Raising these hands is important.

1) The raise is for value. Your hand is far above the average hand preflop. Most hands are currently chasing a pair and lots of hands have only one overcard to it.

2) The raise is for protection. You would like to fold out the players behind you who have overcards to your pair. You will be happy if you get a hand like Q7o to fold preflop to raise. Now if that hand calls, it's still okay because they are making a bad call and you win as a result. This is an important fact about hand protection: If you protect your hand, you don't care what the opponent does. If he calls, he calls unprofitably and you make money. If he folds and plays properly, it's okay because now you have a better chance of winning.

Flop: Sometimes there's an overcard. It happens. (Not as often as you may think! It's a good exercise to find out how often an overcard falls if you have JJ, TT, and 99.) However, there is no reason to assume that the overcard actually hit someone. For example, if you have TT in a 5-handed pot (you raised preflop) and a jack flops, you should still continue to lead into the pot. The chances that someone has a jack is relatively small (compared to the pot, which is now about 10 SB) and you would really like to get players holding weak overcard hands, such as the Q7o example above to fold. He has 3 outs, so the odds of catching his queen are about 15:1. A call by him is bad because he doesn't have odds, and a fold is nice because it leads you to winning the pot about an extra 12% of the time.

If you get raised... you should often fold (check the pot size and whatever read you have, first). You got lots of money in when you had the best hand (8 small bets preflop -- plus the 2 you put in) and now you don't have the best hand, so you get out (at the cost of only 1 more small bet). You can quickly see that your JJ-99 hands are going to hold up very often relative to the losses you sustain by bet-folding the flop.

Turn and river: But what about those hands where the ace hang on until the river and finally catch a winning hand? It happens. But you need to look at it with the proper perspective. For simplicity, suppose you're just heads up after the flop. He has an ace as his only overcard. He makes his ace about 12% of the time by the river. You made him put in 1.5 BB to chase to the river (and you put in 1.5 BB as well on those streets). So when he wins, you lose 12% of 1.5 BB (plus 1 BB because you will pay him off on sometimes). When he loses, you win 88% of the 1.5 BB he puts in the pot. Who comes out ahead in the long run?

By the way, the flush draws are going to get you sometimes. There's no way of avoiding it except by quitting poker.

10-31-2005, 05:00 PM

Thanks for the answer. Very informative and written in a way I could understand. Thanks again