Education Part ll

[jamus]

This is the second part to an earlier writing about education in the United States. As you may recall, I advocated for the privatization of all schools from kindergarten to graduate studies. This piece will focus on the curriculum that needs to be followed.

Everytime I encounter someone in the workplace, I am reminded of just how much we have failed to properly educate United States citizens in the fundamentals of communication: reading, writing and speaking. Few would argue that the time is long overdue for the United States to "get back to the basics" of a fully functional education system. We need to exclusively focus on the development of communication skills from kindergarten to eighth grade along with annual testing that measures apptitude and interest. Training in mathematics should be limited to addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. Unless communication skills are fully mastered, there is no need to advance to high school.

For those who graduate to high school, the emphasis could evolve into a curriculum of philosophy, sociology, economics, psychology, science and religious studies. Books such as "For Dummies" and "The Complete Idiot's Guide" could be used to foster an understanding of different religions. Athletic activity would be strictly confined to cardio vascular exercises and all sports would be eliminated. While there would still be an emphasis on communication skills, the focus would now be on developing a foundation of basic knowledge so as to be able to graduate to college. Testing for apptitude and interest would continue through high school increasing the chances of picking the right field of study . Those not continuing on to college would enter some type of apprenticeship training for the purpose of learning a trade. For those who do graduate to college, the student would continue to study an advanced version of the same curriculum as high school but only for the first two years then they would complete their education by strictly focusing on coursework designed to train them in their field of study. Nearing graduation, internships would be required to begin the transition to the working world. Think of how different our society would be if our education system could just teach the fundamentals of reading, writing and speaking.

[FishHooks]

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Athletic activity would be strictly confined to cardio vascular exercises and all sports would be eliminated.

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You've got to be kidding on this part. I was agreeing with you until i read this part. Whats the logic in this? Some of the best lessons I've learned while in high school came from the football field. I take it you have never played sports?

[lehighguy]

I thought one of the biggest problems with public education is that curriculum were dictated by the board of education rather they being left up to schools and teachers.

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...we have failed to properly educate...



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Who is this "we" you speak of? How can you teach someone who does not want to be taught? How do you go about convincing children their education is important? How do you get them to put their education at the top of their little "To Do" lists? How do you impress upon budding athletes how their chance of succeeding in the "bigs" is infintesimal? How do you show the lil' darlins' their peers' opinions aren't the most important thing in their life?

No teacher, no school board can do this. Public, Private, Secular, Religious - it doesn't matter the type of education offered if a child isn't interested.

We have on 2+2, a number of <21. They can rattle off odds, implied odds, EV, and percentages many have never even heard of. They can multi-table for hours on end. And they can't spell, can't comprehend the intent of a post they're replying to, make outlandish statements, and don't know the difference between your, you're, there, their or they're.

And it's not just the <21. You'll find college students and "graduates" just as bad.

So, what "we" is going to do this massive re-direction of an all too common way of thinking, and attitude?

[FishHooks]

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We have on 2+2, a number of <21. They can rattle off odds, implied odds, EV, and percentages many have never even heard of. They can multi-table for hours on end. And they can't spell, can't comprehend the intent of a post they're replying to, make outlandish statements, and don't know the difference between your, you're, there, their or they're.


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I'm guilty of what you speak of, and there are a few excuses/reasons that come to mind. First of all many of us "kids" are used to talking to friends online and not using great grammer. We are looking for ways to shorten words and it becomes a habit, like saying ok, instead of okay; or even not using apostrophes in contractions. We talk online so often it becomes normal. Also we are so used to having spell check on our word processors that auto correct as you type, so why bother even typing in the apostrophe when it will automaticlly add it in there, it saves time. This is like muscle memory, or what ever it's called. Much of this grammar stuff is being blown out of proportion.

While most of the typos that occur on this forum are from laziness, i do agree i can't spell well, however everything is done on computers that have spell check, except this forum that your better off teaching kids things like how to use the technology.

Since this thread seems to be dying from lack of interest I don't think I'll get accused of highjacking...

Fish,

Thank you for your commments. Nicely put. An easy read. Understandable. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Yes, I know about 'net shorthand. I've been online since AOL was a noob and dumping 3.5" disks everywhere they could. (an anecdotal comment. not intended for making any point.) I know shorthand when I see it and usually disregard it as that.

What I've got a problem with is the lack of clarity in so many posts. I can make sense of shorthand, but not gibberish. I sometimes read a reply to a post and it's just incomprehensible.

Typos are not just an indication of haste, to me they also represent an "I don't care" attitude. All my business life I've run into, around and over, people with that attitude. They're losers. (notice I didn't say "loosers?" j/k)

I know the convenience of spell-check. It's a crutch for many. It could be a teaching aid. It depends on the user.

MS Word used to have another tool, Grammar Check. (My version is out of date since I don't need it for business any more and don't know about the newer releases.) Another crutch, or aid.

Lastly, any comments on the rest of my post?

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

p.s.
Good luck to you in whatever you undertake.

[FishHooks]

All i got to say is that it's really great to have a non hostile conversation with someone on in this politics forum, even if we dissagree on some minor points. kudos to you.

[AngryCola]

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You've got to be kidding

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When your first post in a thread often starts like the above quote, you're just asking for some of the hostility you receive.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
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We have on 2+2, a number of <21. They can rattle off odds, implied odds, EV, and percentages many have never even heard of. They can multi-table for hours on end. And they can't spell, can't comprehend the intent of a post they're replying to, make outlandish statements, and don't know the difference between your, you're, there, their or they're.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guilty of what you speak of, and there are a few excuses/reasons that come to mind. First of all many of us "kids" are used to talking to friends online and not using great grammer. We are looking for ways to shorten words and it becomes a habit, like saying ok, instead of okay; or even not using apostrophes in contractions. We talk online so often it becomes normal. Also we are so used to having spell check on our word processors that auto correct as you type, so why bother even typing in the apostrophe when it will automaticlly add it in there, it saves time. This is like muscle memory, or what ever it's called. Much of this grammar stuff is being blown out of proportion.

While most of the typos that occur on this forum are from laziness, i do agree i can't spell well, however everything is done on computers that have spell check, except this forum that your better off teaching kids things like how to use the technology.

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While I'd like to believe this is true, it's been my experience (from when I was in high school, college, and my time working in the software industry where there are many intelligent people with poor writing skills) that the inability to spell/the inability to write well are characteristics found in people who aren’t very well read.

In fact, if I were to broaden this slightly, I would suggest that a majority of the skilled communicators (particularly skilled writers) I’ve met in my life were avid readers; and the opposite was true for those with poor communication skills.

[FishHooks]

I know your just looking for an argument, but I'm still full of joy that we have a member in this forum who can have a nice conversation so i dont feel the need to sling mud back at you.

[AngryCola]

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I know your just looking for an argument

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Actually, I wasn't looking for an argument at all. I wasn't slinging mud, either.

It was an honest attempt to help you understand that much of the hostility you've received is due to your own behavior. This whole defensive attitude of yours is a big part of what I was talking about.

You get what you give.

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I'm still full of joy that we have a member in this forum who can have a nice conversation

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Many members of this forum have absolutely no difficulty having nice conversations with each other, even when they disagree. On most days, I'm one of them. However, on most days, you are not.

That's not an attempt to bash you, really. But it is the main reason you have few positive experiences here.

[BCPVP]

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In fact, if I were to broaden this slightly, I would suggest that a majority of the skilled communicators (particularly skilled writers) I’ve met in my life were avid readers; and the opposite was true for those with poor communication skills.

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This has held true for me as well. While I don't claim to be a great communicator/writer, I don't have much trouble with grammer or spelling. I think this is from reading a lot (now and earlier). I usually relax a little while online, but I can still function in the outside world.

[DVaut1]

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In fact, if I were to broaden this slightly, I would suggest that a majority of the skilled communicators (particularly skilled writers) I’ve met in my life were avid readers; and the opposite was true for those with poor communication skills.

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This has held true for me as well.

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It seems rather intuitive to me: the more time you spend engaged with written words, the better equipped you are to utilize them.

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While I'd like to believe this is true, it's been my experience (from when I was in high school, college, and my time working in the software industry where there are many intelligent people with poor writing skills) that the inability to spell/the inability to write well are characteristics found in people who aren’t very well read.

In fact, if I were to broaden this slightly, I would suggest that a majority of the skilled communicators (particularly skilled writers) I’ve met in my life were avid readers; and the opposite was true for those with poor communication skills.



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Question. Are not degreed people (no matter the field) required to read? Doesn't reading comprehension, or lack thereof, have a bearing on grades? Don't instructors/professors have to read papers turned in by these students?

No, I'm not flaming or being sarcastic. I understand what you've said and, to a point I agree. Reading does/will/have an effect on a person's ability to spell, write, express themselves, use correct grammar, etc. Some of that, as one of the posters suggests, is intuitive. The intuition, IMO, comes from exposure.

But, the fact that I started doing crossword puzzles and reading, voraciously, at an early age are not the only reason I 'r a gud spellur. (sometimes) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I still believe it goes deeper. It's part of the "attitude" a person has about their education and their desire to learn and excel in life. Some of it can be taught, most comes from within.

[DVaut1]

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Question. Are not degreed people (no matter the field) required to read? Doesn't reading comprehension, or lack thereof, have a bearing on grades? Don't instructors/professors have to read papers turned in by these students?

No, I'm not flaming or being sarcastic. I understand what you've said and, to a point I agree. Reading does/will/have an effect on a person's ability to spell, write, express themselves, use correct grammar, etc. Some of that, as one of the posters suggests, is intuitive. The intuition, IMO, comes from exposure.

But, the fact that I started doing crossword puzzles and reading, voraciously, at an early age are not the only reason I 'r a gud spellur. (sometimes) /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I still believe it goes deeper. It's part of the "attitude" a person has about their education and their desire to learn and excel in life. Some of it can be taught, most comes from within.

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I typed out a rather lengthy response to this and got this error message from the 2+2 servers:

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The form you have submitted is no longer valid.

Please use your back button to return to the previous page.

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My response is now gone. Grr to the forum upgrade /images/graemlins/mad.gif

Anyway, I'm going to respond in a much less wordy manner than I would have otherwise:

I half agree with your post - except that if my college experience was any indication, I think that some 'degreed' people just bullshitted their way through college, doing the minimal amount of reading possible (which in some cases was none at all) or didn't get degrees in disciplines that required vigorous reading. I had written much more on this, but it's gone now. /images/graemlins/mad.gif /images/graemlins/mad.gif - but this was pretty much the gist of it.

Secondly, while the inclination to read might be somewhat natural, I believe committed people can pique curiosities and do much to instill a love of reading - by 'committed' people, I mean parents, teachers, professors, etc. I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around 'intuition by exposure' (see bolded in your post); I think we might be referring to a similar phenomenon.

My response was meant to challenge FishHooks notion that the technophile youth can't write/communicate/spell accurately or well. I don't think this plays much of a role. It's been my experience that well-read youth, like adults, are comparatively good communicators, while the converse is also true: those who don't read are frequently those whose communication skills are severely lacking. I've certainly met some people who are very well versed in computers and rely on them heavily (as I mentioned, I work for a software company) but who are also skilled writers; and one characteristic that seemed universal among these people was that they were all avid readers. I don't see the relationship between 'increased use and reliance on computers' and 'poor communication skills', other than the internet has possibly made it easier for resourceful students to circumvent their reading assignments by finding summaries/Cliff Notes or what have you online.

Lastly, I disagree with the notion that laziness or work ethic play a role - in fact, I think one of the most cherished pastimes of the slothful person is reading! I know many people who have a great drive to learn and succeed - people with fabulous ambitions - but people who have absolutely zero interest in reading, and consequently, are terrible communicators; particularly when trying to communicate through writing. I really don't think 'internal drive' is a factor either, IMO. As I said, I work in software - and I know a good deal of software engineers who are paid great money, have amazing credentials, have cut-throat ambitions, are well-educated (in programming and coding, etc), and are in my estimation brilliant people - but who haven't touched a book in years - and who are consequently so terrible at communicating that company management has gone to great lengths to ensure that these same engineers have absolutely zero contact with clients, out of fear that these engineers would reflect poorly on the product/the company.

I guess this post got kind of wordy, too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AngryCola]

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I typed out a rather lengthy response to this and got this error message from the 2+2 servers:

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The form you have submitted is no longer valid.

Please use your back button to return to the previous page.

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My response is now gone. Grr to the forum upgrade /images/graemlins/mad.gif

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I am happy to announce that users now have the ability to create polls inside active threads.

Enjoy!

[FishHooks]

How about the idea that that liberals vastly out number conservatives on this forum. How about the idea that liberals are generally more angry, but of course "thats not an attempt to bash you" as i take a play from your playbook.

[AngryCola]

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How about the idea that liberals are generally more angry, but of course "thats not an attempt to bash you" as i take a play from your playbook.

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I'm still not a liberal /images/graemlins/frown.gif
It does get quite tiresome repeating that over and over. Perhaps I should make a note of it in my location...

As an aside, your post doesn't seem to have much to do with what I was talking about. But it does show that you are prone to getting a bit too defensive.

Still, I must restrain myself from arguing such a silly thing any further in this thread. It's not fair to the OP for me to be bickering with you and hijacking his thread.

DVaut1,

LOL at your frustration. And your post is no "wordier" than many. At least yours, unlike many, was comprehensible. ty

We're in agreement, mostly. Our differences seem to be in semantics and personal experience/impressions. Normal and healthy, IMO, disagreements. An example of what I keep returning to this forum in search of. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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I am happy to announce that users now have the ability to create polls inside active threads.

Enjoy!

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I saw this and wonder if this isn't going to be a distraction. Would you mind passing along the thinking behind this idea? It's probably a good decision that I just don't understand.

ty

[tylerdurden]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the second part to an earlier writing about education in the United States. As you may recall, I advocated for the privatization of all schools from kindergarten to graduate studies. This piece will focus on the curriculum that needs to be followed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stopped reading here. You want to prevent the government from telling people what they should learn in school just so YOU can be the one to tell people what they should learn in school? That's not privitization.

A reasonable question, but I doubt you'll get an answer.

After noticing OP hasn't added to this thread, I did a search for his postings. It looks, to me, like he enjoys tossing red meat into the arena and then quietly stealing away.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[FishHooks]

I was thinking the same thing.

[AngryCola]

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I am happy to announce that users now have the ability to create polls inside active threads.

Enjoy!

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw this and wonder if this isn't going to be a distraction. Would you mind passing along the thinking behind this idea? It's probably a good decision that I just don't understand.

ty

[/ QUOTE ]

I would if I knew. I like it, though.

Regardless, I didn't post that 'announcement' to be serious. You guys didn't get my joke. :cry:

DVaut posted a real gripe with new upgrade, and I made a post which didn't address his issue at all. Think party poker.

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I would if I knew. I like it, though. This is something a lto of people have been requesting for some time.

Regardless, I didn't post that 'announcement' to be serious. Nobody got my joke. :cry:

DVault posted a real gripe with new upgrade, and I made a post which didn't address his issue at all. Think party poker.



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ooooops. That one went rat ova muh haid! /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[DVaut1]

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I would if I knew. I like it, though.

Regardless, I didn't post that 'announcement' to be serious. You guys didn't get my joke. :cry:

DVaut posted a real gripe with new upgrade, and I made a post which didn't address his issue at all. Think party poker.

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I sort of got it, originally. It's funnier now that I know it's what you were getting at. I'd have been quicker on the uptake had it been something like "Two Plus Two is proud to announce you can now play 10 tables at once!"

nh either way