Please settle this argument...

[DakotaKid]

A friend and I were involved in a no-limit hand (3-handed table) where I limped on the button with JTo, SB folded, and BB (friend) raised ~2BB's. I called. Flop was Jxx rainbow and friend continuation bets ~1/2pot, I raise, friend folds. He said "I'm sure I had the best hand preflop" and showed me K5s. I showed him my hand and said "I'd like to debate that." I said that since neither of us was anywhere near all-in, I thought JTo stood a better chance to make money (or lose less) than K5s, based on large stack sizes and good play. Does anyone have any input on this topic? Specifically, if anyone has a large hand history comparison of JTo and K5s, it could shed some light on this for me. Our conversation wasn't based on his hand vs mine specifically, or vs. preflop raise specifically, just which hand you would rather see pre-flop over your career. Thanks.

[EMcWilliams]

At a three handed table id probably take K5s. JTo is a hand that is meant to be played in a multiway pot in larger games(more players).

[PokerFink]

I'll take whichever hand is on the button.

[DoomSlice]

K5s is definately stronger. High card strength skyrockets in value as the table gets shorter, and being suited is generally worth more than being connected.

As to which is easier to play: both are equally hard. Playing JTo for top pair value will run into the same problems that K5s has, namely a weak kicker. You'll be losing the same amount he has when you are either forced to fold a pair of jacks or call down with a dominated hand (same for him with a weak pair of kings). However, a pair of kings is going to win a good portion more of the pot than a pair of jacks. If you hit top pair then he has a redraw to a better pair. If he hits top pair then you need running cards to save you.

Furthermore, you have to worry about 3 overcards, while he only has to worry about 1.

[scrapperdog]

Depends on the number of people at the table. 3 handed K5 is stronger, 5 handed or more you want the J10.

Preflop:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.6119 % 56.27% 00.34% { K5s }
Hand 2: 43.3881 % 43.04% 00.34% { JTo }

a J-Flop:
Board: 2c Jh 3d
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 17.9237 % 17.92% 00.00% { K5s }
Hand 2: 82.0763 % 82.08% 00.00% { JTo }

a K-flop:
Board: 2c 3d Kh
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 95.4209 % 95.42% 00.00% { K5s }
Hand 2: 04.5791 % 04.58% 00.00% { JTo }

K5s is a better hand.

[ghostface]

[ QUOTE ]
BB (friend) raised ~2BB's.

[/ QUOTE ]

for 2 more BB's i would play almost any hand on the button with a good read.

[DakotaKid]

As I mentioned in the original post, I'm not interested in this specific hand (short handed, button or blind, K5s vs JTo). I merely explained why we both ended up in a flop after a raise with such holdings. What our argument is about is which hand is better, period. Put another way, if you could be dealt either hand for the rest of your life, every hand (and everyone forgot this pattern), which hand would serve as most profitable over the long term across all table situations?

[PinkSteel]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take whichever hand is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jtr]

[ QUOTE ]
...which hand would serve as most profitable over the long term across all table situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

When you say "all table situations" you're implying that there's some reasonable distribution of table situations that we can all appeal to. But that just isn't true. People have already answered your question by pointing out that if you play short-handed for the rest of your life you want K5s and if you play full ring you want JTo. You tell me what distribution of short- vs. long-handed situations is reasonable and then your question might become answerable.

[rikz]

I think the only way to answer this objectively is to put the hands into an odds calculator and see which is better. As mentioned in thedustbustr's post, the better hand is K5s. Now, in a multiway pot with position, the JT has straight possibilities that K5s doesn't. Moreover, a turned double belly buster straight, for example, is well hidden, so your chance of getting paid off by two pair or TPTK or what ever is pretty high when you get lucky. So, since implied odds for a straight are somewhat higher than a flush (since its usually not so obvious as a flush), JTo is OK. However, if you just run the deck "hot and cold" between JTo and K5s, then K5s is better, period.

FWIW, in a short handed game with JTo, wouldn't it be better to make a raise from the button than limp? That way if villain with K5s called, he'd probably just check fold on the flop and you'd be done with it.

Also, in a full ring game, I fold JTo just about every time, and certainly fold it in every raised pot.

It only makes sense to compare them HU. In a full ring, neither are playable against loose villains (40VPIP). Odds for situation where three 40% VPIP loose villains limp pf:

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
12,371,071 games 103.428 secs 119,610 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 19.9500 % 19.02% 00.93% { K5s }
Hand 2: 19.5285 % 18.41% 01.11% { JTo }
Hand 3: 20.1828 % 18.76% 01.43% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 4: 20.1725 % 18.74% 01.43% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 5: 20.1662 % 18.74% 01.43% { 44+, A2s+, K2s+, Q4s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A3o+, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }</pre><hr />

I only ran it for 1% of the possible situations but the equity was clearly approaching an asymptote. In these conditions both K5s and JTo are slightly under 20% equity which means they are slightly unprofitable (=garbage starting hands)

And yes, surprise surprise, K5s is slightly better.

And yes again, the tighter the villain, the worse both of these hands are going to fair.

[DakotaKid]

Thank you, this is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. I guess where my intuition led me was that hitting the giant flop with either of these I'd fare better with JTo, going on the notion that the straight would generally pay better than the flush, as well as (I feel) JTo could make the stone cold nuts more often than K5s. I understand that either of these hands are marginal at best, it was more or less an academic argument we were having, and it sort of got me thinking. Thanks again to all who shared their opinions.

K5s !

JTo is a loser over the long run in every position barring one (where it only breaks even) on a full table , K5s is a marginal winner in three positions at the same full table.