PS Strategy--Battling the weak/tights 5 handed

[Cactus Jack]

Times have changed. Where once you could depend on the fish playing laggy to the money, they've now schooled up and are playing weak/tight forever!

What I've been seeing nearly every time now, 11s and 22s on Pokerstars, is it gets down now to 5 players, surprisingly early. Then, for orbit after orbit, they bet/fold round and round. The blinds aren't pushing anyone yet, and they trade chips enough to keep everyone above panic mode. If one gets down to 1k, they go all in and pick up a couple of blinds and are back to comfortable. They probably have two good hands when they do this, which can happen. The blinds will fold up to an all in. And on and on it goes. If you're playing correctly, you're dead.

e.g.--I managed to double up on the very first hand with quad 4s. I thought I was easy from here on out. It got down to 5 players, and I was staying even--between 3 and 4K--by stealing blinds. Then, I had a run of pretty good hands, at least hands that should be played at this point, made my usual 3 and 4BB raises and would get either folds for few chips, or one caller. After realizing I was up against a better hand, I had lost 300 to 500 or more chips. Went from being chip leader to playing my butt off to stay in it. Then, I started thinking about what was going on, and for the next half dozen SNGs I played, I watched to see if a pattern was developing. Pretty sure there is one. (I know you guys need a couple hundred SNGs to be "statisically valid," but I'm fairly sure you can see a pattern with even a small sample size if you've been playing long enough.)

I think what is happening is they've learned to play tight, which gets them down to a short table. But, rather than expanding their starting hand requirements, they are keeping with their strategy of playing top 20% or even top 10. If they don't have AT or better, or a pair, they fold. This can go on for a long time, until two get a hand they want to play and push against each other. If You play your usual game, it's like punching into a bag of marshmellows. They absorb every shot and you come away with little, but can easily loose ground if you run into a big hand.

So, I'm stealing enough to build a 3k or better chip stack, then letting them knock each other out. If I get a big hand, I'll string 'em out to get them committed. Pushing is suicide, as they'll either fold right away, or you're either coin-flipping or beaten.

Patience, I believe, is what it takes now. Enormous patience. These are pretty easy games, very predictable. If you can outlast and outplay them, then you're almost a lock to get ITM. Get ahead of yourself, and they're gonna make you nuts.

What you tink, guys? Anyone else seeing this? Anyone got a better strategy for battling this form of "collusion."

CJ

If it gets down to five handed and these players are playing less than 20% of their hands and you're not giving them your chips when they do play their good hands, simple math would suggest that they cannot stay even.

I don't doubt that you are right about the general conservative approach. Nor do I doubt that patience in an important factor in one's success. But, I do think you've exaggerated the situation a bit.

[Cactus Jack]

If I'm exaggerating, it certainly isn't by much. Just played 6 Turbo 16s. Seven players with blinds and antes, in four of them.

If you play top 50% hands and you get one 50% of the time, which is probably not likely, and you get called by 20% hands 30% of the time, aren't you going to lose money?

I've got to go to work, so that's just kind of off the top of my head, but hopefully it's close to correct. All I know is these are getting much tighter and I think it's because the players are playing much tighter and passive far longer. Often it feels like a 4 on 1, with you being the one trying to fight them all off you.

Out of the six I played, getting really pathetic starting hands, I was shortstacked all morning. I played really hard to stay in them to little avail. In only one did I get enough cards to stick around until I got in the money, then heads up, then won easily.

In the tourneys I'm seeing now, it's far better to be good than lucky. You can hang around a long time outplaying them until you do get some cards. The good news is they really can't play heads up at all.

CJ

Hey fellow BTP'er!

Many players turn weak-tight when the blinds start increasing. I still play these SNGs the same - slow first, fast later. Since these players are so tight, they probably are only calling with 5% of their hands, and raising the other 5%. 90% of the time you'll take the pot down without a fight and earn the blinds (and antes on PS). Of course this doesn't mean you should raise every hand, but you get the general idea.

I think you're overestimating with them calling with 20% of their hands. If they're really weak tight, they're probably only calling with 99-TT, AQo/s+. 99 and AQ are even stretches for these weak-tighties. This only amounts to 4% of the hands dealt. And they'd probably raise back with JJ+ and maybe AKo/s (some weak-tighties hate AK and won't raise your bet), which is only 3% of their hands. So a little over 90% of the time, you will take down the pot uncontested.

I noticed this yesterday when I was playing some $5 SNGs on UB to help my confidence and aggression. My goal was to have about 4000 chips once it got five handed so I could abuse these weak tight bubble players.

It's not traditionally been my style so it's something I wanted to practice. Sure enough, I could raise almost any two cards with good position and bet people out of hands unless I sensed some real strength, which they almost ALWAYS telegraph.

Patience is definitely the key. Stay aggressive and stay smart. Beating those players is a piece of cake. I watched one guy get blinded down to 120 with the BB of 200 because he couldn't pick up a hand big enough. He finally moved all in with QQ, which incidentally lost to AK, but he wasn't even a factor if he doubled.

Let those idiots bleed to death and be happy to take their blinds without a showdown.