(22) How do you play draws in early levels?

[golfcchs]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

UTG (t1000)
MP1 (t745)
MP2 (t890)
CO (t715)
Button (t1420)
SB (t2505)
Hero (t725)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t120) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t75</font>, Button folds, SB folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t195

I have recently become extremly tight post flop from the blinds in the early levels and was wondering how other pwople play draws with 12 or more outs from the blinds?

[Freudian]

I'd probably fold here also, mainly because he has position on you. With top or middle pair or a stronger flushdraw, I like raising.

[splashpot]

I hate folding. You have the nine flush outs, two 6 outs, and three 3 outs. 14 total. That's a little over 50% to hit one of those outs by the river. Your pot odds are good. I'd call and see what happens on the turn.

[sledghammer]

I would bet this flop 100% of the time.

edit: CO could be betting so many hands you already beat. (any 7, for example).

[Simplistic]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate folding. You have the nine flush outs, two 6 outs, and three 3 outs. 14 total. That's a little over 50% to hit one of those outs by the river. Your pot odds are good. I'd call and see what happens on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]i disagree, you have worst pair, no kicker, likely could be up against a hand such as JTd in which case you would be getting your chips in with the worst of it. If he has a hand such as 67d or A6d then by all means, but I lean towards a fold here.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate folding. You have the nine flush outs, two 6 outs, and three 3 outs. 14 total. That's a little over 50% to hit one of those outs by the river. Your pot odds are good. I'd call and see what happens on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]i disagree, you have worst pair, no kicker, likely could be up against a hand such as JTd in which case you would be getting your chips in with the worst of it. If he has a hand such as 67d or A6d then by all means, but I lean towards a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not about who currently has the best hand. It's about pot odds. Elementary poker theory.

[sledghammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate folding. You have the nine flush outs, two 6 outs, and three 3 outs. 14 total. That's a little over 50% to hit one of those outs by the river. Your pot odds are good. I'd call and see what happens on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]i disagree, you have worst pair, no kicker, likely could be up against a hand such as JTd in which case you would be getting your chips in with the worst of it. If he has a hand such as 67d or A6d then by all means, but I lean towards a fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why does OP have to be up against a hand like that? thats an extremely narrow range for a limped pot, with a CO betting after 2 checks. He could have Ace high and think his hand is best, he could just be trying to pick up chips. Which is why i think leading the flop is by far the best option.

[Simplistic]

you don't have odds to draw if the hand you do in fact draw to is no good. elementary poker theory.

[splashpot]

Why would his hand not be good? It's not the nuts, but it's damn strong. You can't possibly tell me that you put the villian on the range of JTd. And that's it. Your draw often enough strong enough to make this an easy call given the odds.

[Freudian]

So what do you do when the turn is a blank. You are first to act. If you check and he once again don't give you the odds to draw, do you call?

Drawing hand bleed chips in the earlier levels and the implied odds aren't all that great.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
So what do you do when the turn is a blank. You are first to act. If you check and he once again don't give you the odds to draw, do you call?

Drawing hand bleed chips in the earlier levels and the implied odds aren't all that great.

[/ QUOTE ]
Even if implied odds aren't good, the current odds you are getting are fantastic. 14 outs means that you have 29.79% chance of hitting one of them on the turn even if you forget about the river. You're getting good enough odds for just the turn.

PS- I would agree with you about bleeding chips with drawing hands if it were just the flush draw.

[Simplistic]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would his hand not be good? It's not the nuts, but it's damn strong. You can't possibly tell me that you put the villian on the range of JTd. And that's it. Your draw often enough strong enough to make this an easy call given the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]you're 75 into 195 which is less than 1:3. implied odds suck as you're pretty much announcing that your hand is a draw by check/calling.

how are you going to play the later streets?

furthermore, give a hand range for someone open-limping on the button.

he doesn't appear to concerned with giving you odds because his bet is weakish. a hand such as twopair/overpair is definitely betting more. it appears he may be drawing too, but to a stronger hand. otherwise he has a better pair/better kicker.

at best he has something like K9c and then you are 50/50 to win the hand. at worst he has something like T7d or A7d or JTd in which case you're really hurting.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
you're 75 into 195 which is less than 1:3

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at best he has something like K9c and then you are 50/50 to win the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Last time I checked, 50/50 to win the hand getting 2-1 odds is a damn good deal. And based on the info given, there is no reason to suspect he has 2 better clubs. It's possible, but you're just assuming he has a monster.

[pooh74]

If you're going to play this hand...and Im not sure OP should necessarily,(I would but I suck like that) he should raise the flop bet to get a free card if possible. This is actually often times cheaper for the hero than flat calling because it prevents a costly turn call which will often be more than hero's flop raise. It also achieves the other function of not appearing like a draw. IOW on the flop hero appears like he is protecting a pair etc...on the turn hero will check behind if checked to when a blank comes or bet when he hits 2 pr or better. If he gets his card on the river after the turn check, he will often get a bet by a frustrated villain when hero is good.

or just fold, its early.

[splashpot]

I would agree with you if Hero had position. But without position, you can't check behind on the turn.

[sledghammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would his hand not be good? It's not the nuts, but it's damn strong. You can't possibly tell me that you put the villian on the range of JTd. And that's it. Your draw often enough strong enough to make this an easy call given the odds.

[/ QUOTE ]you're 75 into 195 which is less than 1:3. implied odds suck as you're pretty much announcing that your hand is a draw by check/calling.

how are you going to play the later streets?

furthermore, give a hand range for someone open-limping on the button.

he doesn't appear to concerned with giving you odds because his bet is weakish. a hand such as twopair/overpair is definitely betting more. it appears he may be drawing too, but to a stronger hand. otherwise he has a better pair/better kicker.

at best he has something like K9c and then you are 50/50 to win the hand. at worst he has something like T7d or A7d or JTd in which case you're really hurting.

[/ QUOTE ]

at best he has something like.... nothing. people try and pick up cheap pots like these all the time. He could have a 7, a bigger flush draw, 55, a weak 9, KJo, anything. OPs orginal mistake was checking the flop with a great hand, with no indication he has the worst hand.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you're 75 into 195 which is less than 1:3

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at best he has something like K9c and then you are 50/50 to win the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Last time I checked, 50/50 to win the hand getting 2-1 odds is a damn good deal. And based on the info given, there is no reason to suspect he has 2 better clubs. It's possible, but you're just assuming he has a monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are only paying to draw one card, not two.

[splashpot]

But you have odds to draw one card.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree with you if Hero had position. But without position, you can't check behind on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...sorry!

fold..Ill actually read the hand next time instead of just looking at the pretty diamonds and numbers!

Damn...I like my line too...just switch seats

[golfcchs]

[ QUOTE ]
at best he has something like.... nothing. people try and pick up cheap pots like these all the time. He could have a 7, a bigger flush draw, 55, a weak 9, KJo, anything. OPs orginal mistake was checking the flop with a great hand, with no indication he has the worst hand.



[/ QUOTE ]
Donks at the 22's do not respect a bet out of the blinds at all. Also if I bet and get called, which in my experience will happen on a draw heavey board, and the turn is a blank I am in a really bad spot because I have no idea if my hand is the best or if I am drawing to the best hand.

[sledghammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at best he has something like.... nothing. people try and pick up cheap pots like these all the time. He could have a 7, a bigger flush draw, 55, a weak 9, KJo, anything. OPs orginal mistake was checking the flop with a great hand, with no indication he has the worst hand.



[/ QUOTE ]
Donks at the 22's do not respect a bet out of the blinds at all. Also if I bet and get called, which in my experience will happen on a draw heavey board, and the turn is a blank I am in a really bad spot because I have no idea if my hand is the best or if I am drawing to the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

good point. I don't play the 22s. But at the 55s i would always lead. On the turn in this situation i would either check fold to a large bet or make a 'probe size bet/fold to significant raise' to help me draw cheaply. Am i the only one here who auto bets this flop?