Pocket 4's in the BB

[Noo Yawk]

20-40, late position raises, SB call's, I have 4-4 in the BB, and call.
The raiser is a good, but not great player. The SB is a tough player.
The flop: 10-10-9. SB checks, I check, raiser checks.
The turn is another 10. SB checks, what's your play?
There was alot of debate on the way I played this hand, but I'd like to see how you folks would proceed.

[rtrombone]

Very interesting hand. What makes it interesting is that you have to deal with the SB along with the blind-stealer.

I don't think there's any obvious play. I think you can safely say that neither the SB or raiser has a 9. Surely they would've bet the flop? Similarly, they probably don't have JJ through AA. Because the SB would've 3-bet pre-flop and the raiser likely has a steal-type hand. Plus, the raiser would've bet JJ through KK at the flop.

The presence of the SB complicates things. I don't know, I may check and fold if the raiser bets and the SB calls. Because then I'd give the SB credit for a pocket pair bigger than mine. If the raiser bets and the SB folds I either call or raise.

So I guess my answer is "check."

[Rick Nebiolo]

In this spot I'd lean towards checking the turn and checkaising if the pre flop raiser bets and the SB folds. Your checkraise is relatively protected against a tricky three bet and you usually will be leading.

If you check and the SB calls the button's bet you should generally fold. He either has you beat or the pre flop raiser does. If you bet and just the SB calls you should generally check behind on the river.

If the turn gets checked through bet the river if any baby comes. If the SB bets just call. You will rarely face a raise behind and will be ahead enough to make it worth it.

Note that if you bet the turn fear the SB's call more than the button's call (if both call you are dead). If raised by either usually fold.

~ Rick

[elysium]

hi noo
bet.

[nef]

I would have bet the flop, but failing that I bet the turn here. There is no reason to think you are behind.

[Noo Yawk]

Thanks for all the responses. Rick said exactly what my mentor, and the tough player in the hand told me.
I bet, and got raised by the original pre-flop raiser, forcing the tough player to fold his pocket Queens. I then folded to the raise, and the original raiser showed his pocket 9's. The expert laid down his Q's, giving me credit for a big hand, and was a bit miffed at me for making him lay down the best hand, then folding my hand. He explained my mistake exactly as Rick did. He made me buy him dinner for the free lesson and costing him the pot! Live and learn /forums/images/icons/grin.gif .

[rrace]

"I bet, and got raised by the original pre-flop raiser, forcing the tough player to fold his pocket Queens. I then folded to the raise, and the original raiser showed his pocket 9's. The expert laid down his Q's, giving me credit for a big hand, and was a bit miffed at me for making him lay down the best hand, then folding my hand. "

Huh? If the original raiser had pocket 9's then doesn't he have a full house? Why would the tough player be miffed?

[Diplomat]

Did he show you his queens? Because a tough player might just say that to get a free dinner out of you. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

-Diplomat

[Diplomat]

...because the board was TTT9, so the pre-flop raiser had his full house counterfitted on the turn. He had tens full of nines, and the tough player had tens full of queens. If you believe him.

-Diplomat

[rrace]

[elysium]

hi rick
i really enjoy your posts and you usually are right on, but i think noo is in the lead here. the SB is dangerous, but with only the button showing strength pre-flop and then checking it down, when the SB approves another check around, noo must figure to be in the lead here more often than not, and, although tricky, there are too many other possibilities. actually, i think noo should have bet out on the flop to get this HU. i think that was a big mistake. and if the failure to bet the flop means that he doesn't know where he stands, i don't think making the same mistake again is the way to go.

in this hand your method proved best. but over-all, the best way of handling this is to bet out on the flop to try to get HU, and stay to the river unless the action tells you to fold. even a call by the SB on the turn indicates a call, if not a raise. i know i'm in the minority here, but i actually have noo leading on the scant info available to work with. you made this a good post with your analysis rick, but i digress a little here.

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Diplomat,
That friggin' bastard conned me out of dinner?? He's dead!!
Nah, he's a good friend, a good mentor and has paid for more of my dinner's then I can count. He has no reason to lie to me, and I have no reason not to believe him.

[elindauer]

If laying down queens in this situation is correct, I don't know how to play this game. Let's see... there was a raise from late position. This certainly doesn't imply AA or KK to me, although I have been known to try to steal in late position before. The only hand this leaves is the one including the case ten.

Why can't the big blind be betting with, say, AQ, trying to pick up the pot and protect his lead? The big blind can be raising with a single 9, JJ... he might even just be taking a shot at the big blind. After all, it's been suggested that he should laydown his pair for a raise.

Dumping queens here seems like a huge laydown, not warranted by the betting action. On the other hand, I've never played 20-40 in my life. Maybe I just have a lot to learn...

[Noo Yawk]

Hi Elindauer.
Laying down Q's when it's 2 BB's to you, and the original better left to act behind you is great laydown. The results are just skewing your decision. Both my opponents made the right play. The only one to make a mistake in this hand and cost himself was me. Had I checked, a different person would have won the pot, and I'd be $40 richer.
If you read Rick's response, which he made prior to the results being posted, you'll see why he is on a higher level than alot of good players. The reason I posted this hand was to see what type of "next level" thinking I could pick up from some of the more seasoned players. There's alot to this hand if you read the original post and Ricks response. These type of marginal situations come up often enough, that it should help your profits over the long haul.

[JTG51]

Am I the only one that thinks the tough player in the SB played every street very poorly?

[Noo Yawk]

"Am I the only one that thinks the tough player in the SB played every street very poorly? "

Only in hindsight. Would you always 3 bet, without every trying to vary your play pre-flop? Whats wrong wrong with going for the check-raise on the flop? What' wrong with going for the check-raise on the turn? Why is folding to 2 BB's cold on the turn in a marginal situation with good players and a mediocre pot a bad play?
It's amazing how critical everyone becomes after reading the results. Trust me when I tell you that the tough player in question is not someone you want in your game.
The only poor play here was mine. What seemed automatic to me was a bad move. Again, I'll refer you to Rick's response, as he hit this perfectly.

[mike l.]

"If laying down queens in this situation is correct, I don't know how to play this game."

exactly. this laydown is sickening. this sounds like players who play together too often and have notions of who should respect who screwing with their game, that's the only way to explain it. noo yawk, find a new mentor.

[mike l.]

"The results are just skewing your decision."

no. if you wouldve made a post and said "you have QQ in the sb and all this stuff happens and then the turn comes and this happens, what should i do?" we wouldve all been saying 3 bet (as well as 3 bet preflop and bet and raise the flop) or some would say call and see what the bb does. i think you want to believe something is true when it's not the case and you have an image of this sb guy built up as a great player when according to the way he choked this hand he is not.

wait a couple months, post this hand from the pov of the sb and see what people think the turn play should be and i bet some people who never read this thread respond and no one says fold. or post it on another forum. i think this is one both mason, tommy, and david would agree on, a fold is not the play. oh hell w/ it ill go post it on general forum and see what the clowns over there think.

[mike l.]

"The only poor play here was mine."

btw i dont think this is the case either. your preflop play is standard and correct. your flop check is okay since you should expect late position to bet this flop every time. your bet on the turn after everyone checks the flop is good. when it comes back to you on the turn it's close between a fold, a call, and a reraise. all have their merits and are player dependent, particularly what this player thinks of you.

[Noo Yawk]

Good points. I'll be interested in the responses in the general forum.

[Your Mom]

I've never played 20/40 either, but I would never fold queens here against anyone other than the most predictable players in the world. To do so, you are putting the raiser on exactly Aces, Kings, or the case 10. I really don't think this is a wise decision here. I think, I would at least call, and probably reraise. The bettor could have basically anything, the raiser could have any pocket pair, AK, or AQ. You obviously know your opponents better than me, but against typical unknown players, I would not lay down QQ here.

[JTG51]

Would you always 3 bet, without every trying to vary your play pre-flop?

In this situation, yes. I'd rather vary my play by 3-betting with 98s than by calling with QQ.

Whats wrong wrong with going for the check-raise on the flop?

Assuming he was trying to check raise, that's fine. I was going to say every street except for the possibility of the flop, but I got lazy.

Why is folding to 2 BB's cold on the turn in a marginal situation with good players and a mediocre pot a bad play?

I think his QQ is going to be good way too often to fold for 2 cold. I also think he would have been better off betting the turn and not putting himself in a situation where he could be bluffed out though.

It's amazing how critical everyone becomes after reading the results.

How could I be critical of his play without knowing his hand? If you told me he mucked QQ on the turn without telling me the other guys hand, I would have been just as critical.

Trust me when I tell you that the tough player in question is not someone you want in your game.

OK. I never said he was a bad player, just that he played this hand badly.

The only poor play here was mine. What seemed automatic to me was a bad move.

I'm not convinced. I think your bet is good, I'm not sure your fold is though. Rick is infinitely smarter than I am, his response about your play hasn't convinced me completely yet though.

Again, I'll refer you to Rick's response, as he hit this perfectly.

I really hope Rick jumps in here again and comments on the SBs play. I can't imagine that he'll like it. It's gotta be pretty rare when the best way to play QQ is call, check, check-fold.

Post this hand again in a month pretending that you are the SB. I bet the vast majority of responses will be highly critical.

[JTG51]

mike, should I be worried that I just made pretty much the same points below that you did? Is it a good thing or a bad thing that I'm thinking like you?

[Noo Yawk]

Your points about regular players screwing with each others game is the heart of the matter. Hence the reason for the post and some validation on this advise. When I put it all together, I still think checking would have been the best play in my postion.
Now that we decided to critique the SB's play, and you posted the hand in genral forum, I think you should have done it without mention to my post or the mentor stuff. The idea to post was great with you as the poster, but I'd like to have seen it without leading statements to get better and more thought out responses.
As far the laydown being sickening, I don't agree. At the time it happened, I also thought it was a terrible laydown. But I'll wait a while to post my thoughts to your post in General Forum so as not to intefere with the integrity of the post. If I can be convinced that is in fact a bad laydown, then I'll say just that.

[mike l.]

'without mention to my post or the mentor stuff."

youre right maybe i shouldnt have mentioned your post but i felt the mentor thing was pertinent to the hand and strictly factual.

"Your points about regular players screwing with each others game is the heart of the matter."

i guess i sensed (and i may be way off) it was more a matter of regular players NOT screwing with each other, giving each other too much respect. and i sense this may be a regional thing as i suspect your poker base there is much smaller than here.

[Noo Yawk]

Great responses and I hope Rick jumps in here as well. Mike I. already posted in General Forum from the SB's point of view. So let's see the responses there.
My initial statement to SB was that his laydown was terrible. His reasoning convinced me otherwise. I can be persuaded that his fold is wrong. I don't think I could ever lay this down myself, but the this guy is usually spot on with his folds or when he just doesn't think the pot is worth chasing. This time he wasn't. All the best players I ever met, or whose posts on this board are so respected, seem to make these great laydowns. Guarenteed they throw away winners more than most of us, but only when the pot and the cost to win it isn't right. It's also gurenteed that they save more bets on their folds then most of us win on our calls and raises in these marginal situations. I'm trying to work on making bigger folds myself, so this could become a valuable thread.

[JTG51]

Mike I. already posted in General Forum from the SB's point of view.

Yeah, I saw that just after I made my post. I didn't mean to repeat him.

I'm trying to work on making bigger folds myself, so this could become a valuable thread.

You'll find a whole lot of people around here (including me) that will tell you that making big laydowns isn't the way to make money in hold'em. They look pretty and feel great when you are right, but when the pot is getting bigish (not that it was here) you have to be right almost every time to be profitable. I save the big laydowns for when I know my opponents extremely well or when it's blatantly obvious that I can't win.

[Noo Yawk]

Your senses on the matter blew me away. Not only wansn't it way off, but more like exact.

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Noo Yawk:

I would certainly bet the turn if I played it as you did. But I would have also bet the flop.

Best wishes,
Mason

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi again NY:

You wrote:

20-40, late position raises, SB call's, I have 4-4 in the BB, and call. The raiser is a good, but not great player. The SB is a tough player.

I question this. Tough players know to reraise out of the small blind in this spot.

Best wishes,
mason

[Noo Yawk]

I agree that 3 betting in the SB with Q's is the best play, but I think he was trying to trap him later, and as we now all know, this didn't work out too well /forums/images/icons/smile.gif . What are your thoughts on his turn fold?

[serge]

Hi,
i am surprise that nobody suggest to simply fold preflop!
It is very difficult to win with a small pocket pair against 2 players and you dont have odds to look if you flop a set.
Any different opinion?

[glen]

You do have odds to flop a set - hpfap.

[MD_]

[coolhandkuhn]

The expert laid down his Q's, giving me credit for a big hand, and was a bit miffed at me for making him lay down the best hand, then folding my hand.

I question how the expert can know you have a big hand from your calling a pre-flop raise from a potential blind-stealer which closes the action, then checking the flop, then betting when checked to on the turn. There are a lot of hands that I would fire out a bet on the turn with here, including Ace high, and for him to lay down a hand that can only be beaten by pocket aces, kings, or the case 10, seems weak to me. Did the expert explain why your play of the hand gave him cause to give you credit for a big hand?

[DeezNuts]

Immediately you are getting 5-1, and that is not including the implied odds. If the table is aggressive at all and you have an inkling of how to play your hand if you flop a set, a call is correct. Of course, if the SB 3-bet pre-flop instead of completely botching his hand on every street, then the play would be to fold.

I think he played the hand correctly(although I may have called down), although depending on the opponent, a flop bet would have let you fold the turn with more confidence. This is definitely one of the types of boards that can be very trappy for small pocket pairs.

DN

[Noo Yawk]

I was hoping Mike I.'s post would get some more responses, before I added to this, but since it didn't I'll go ahead and post.
First off, I want to thank everyone for their valuable input.
Mike I. hit the soul of this post and my reason for posting. Was my play questioned by the SB because I interfered with his play? Well, since I'm quite confident that this forum is going to give me what I feel is the most accurate and objective answer, lets post the hand on 2+2. My original post had no mention of any play except from my perspective, before I or anyone knew what the others held. I felt Rick gave the best answer for the original post.
Now for the SB's thoughts. He knew he screwed up by risking a call with his hand by possibly letting me enter the pot. He erred by not 3-betting me out. However, he felt his hand was much stronger than what the Pre-flop raiser held and tried to get tricky so he could punnish him on later streets. There is still a good chance that I'm folding without him having to 3 bet. A mistake, but certainly not out of the realm of realty. People on this board frequently discuss their deception plays, knowing their is some risk involved.
When the pre-flop raiser checked behind on the flop, especially from this LP player (remember, we all play regularly together), it usually means 2 things:

1) he completely missed and wanted a free card. Not likely for this player.
2) He hit a monster and wanted to gain bets on later streets. very likely for this player.

The fact is, that #2 did occur here. It just got counterfited on the turn.
When I bet, and the the LP raises, the look in his eyes gave him up. I saw it, and so did the SB. LP is a good player, but very easy to read.
So, why did the SB fold a big Full-house?
1) A flop check with a turn raise.
2) 6 BB's in the pot and 2 BB's to call
3) me acting behind him, and I did consider 3-betting for a micro second, and the possibility that this could become a very expensive second best hand.
4) the Look on the LP's face when he raised.
5) the fact that he botched this play preflop by allowing me in, and not wanting to compound his mistake while he only had $40 invested in a medicore pot.

While this probably won't convince anybody that the fold is fine, it may shed some light and convince some of you that it's not the worst fold ( that is, if your going to fold the best hand) in the world. At least not to the degree it was made out be.
The bottom line here, is the SB should never have let me in pre-flop, as Mason and other said. I don't believe that his going for a check-raise on the flop was at all a bad play.
His fold on the turn, at the time, I thought was terrible just as the folks on this board seem to think. But his rationale to me while we discussed the hand does have merit. However, after reading the posts, and particularly Mike I.'s assesment of the total picture, I think the SB was probably more irked about his trying to get cute, than my play of the hand.
As for my play, while I remain convinced that I should have checkd the turn, at least I feel like betting the turn was still a reasonable play as well. Betting the flop, which I considered also, would have been the best play, as Mason pointed out.
Thanks again for all the input. It cleared alot of things up for me.

[Dixie]

I couldn't agree more. That's a ridiculous laydown.

[Dixie]

I agree. SB should certainly have re-raised.

[baseball38]

No! I am 100% with you, I believe the tough player played his hand poorly as well.

baseball38 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[punkass]

I would bet out here. I would probably fold to a raise. And check the river.

[David Sklansky]

Preflop, the fours have a borderline decision. Folding is a tiny mistake. The queens however made a big mistake. His play would be OK with aces or kings but not queens. Once everyone checked the flop, the fours should bet out. Check raisng is OK only if he is almost sure the button will bet. The queen's check on the turn is OK, but once he shows so much weakness he must call the cold raise on the turn against most opponents.

[rhwbullhead]

I don't agree with any of your mentor's reasonings for folding the hand in that spot. The only time that fold might be good is if the two players were total readouts. (And you and the button don't sound like you were, according to your description). Your mentor plays the hand incorrectly on earlier streets in order to trap both of his opponents. Then, when he has them right where he wants them on the turn, he decides to fold and not collect all those bets. I would have taken my chances with someone having the ten. I probably would have reraised on fourth street, or just call (to get the BB (ie you) trapped), and then bet the river out. If one of my opponents has quads, oh well.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Noo Yawk,

Sorry I haven't responded further but I'm visiiting the folks and am plauged with their old computer, AOL, no DSL and lack of time for the forum. I'll look at those other issues on this thread if I get the chance late tonight (if I haven't had too many beers /forums/images/icons/smile.gif .

Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

JTG51,

Regarding me being infinitely smarter then anybody - on this forum I'd say I'm about a 60 watt light bulb in a room where most of the bulbs are 100 watts or more ;-).

I'm having a hard time navigating this thread from my parent's machine but from what I can see I HATE the SB's play. He should be usually three betting before the flop and no way he can ever lay down this hand later with this board unless he is getting jammed on the turn and even then it isn't easy.

I also assume the BB planned on checkraising the flop but missed his chance. The BB leading the flop isn't so bad either.

The BB lead bet on the turn is a good option but I do think checking works a bit better since it would be unlikely that the turn gets checked through with a typical button.

BTW, I really appreciate DSL and a nice keyboard now that I don't have it /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Regards,

Rick

[mikelow]

IMO, I think the player with the queens played real bad. He should be betting the turn. Having checked, he should at (least) call the raise.

No lessons here. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[SoBeDude]

And you have no reason to take the blame for your 'mentor' making a bad fold.

He should have called, as there are very few hands that he's behind.

-Scott