river questions

[RustyCJ]

Value betting the river is a struggle for me, when to check and when to bet, here are a couple hands I have questions on. Should i have played either of these differently along the way?

Paradise Poker 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10.70 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 18.70 BB



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Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

River: (6.70 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.70 BB

[PokerSparky]

There's no other way to play both of these hands IMO. Without reads, I call the river raise in both of them and expect to lose both of them.

[RustyCJ]

my thoughts too, but with all the problems I've on the river lately I'm going to post numerous hands with river problems/questions.

[PokerSparky]

FWIW, I think river value betting is one of the most difficult aspects of becoming a good poker player. I'm still wrestling with it.

[adsman]

Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

[kai]

Without any reads how do you know MP3 will bet the turn? Do you really wanna risk giving a free card here?

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do either of these.

[RustyCJ]

for hand 2, part of me wanted to check but there are LOTS of hand he could've been calling all the way with, AT, KT, AK, KQ even A high for that matter.

I lost both hands, I was more surpised to lose hand 1 than hand 2, hand 2 just seemed to be ripe for a fullhouse, these losers love to coldcall with KJ.

[Blunderfull1]

With hand 2, you should value bet this because there are lots of hands that he might call a bet with, but check if you check.
Whoops I thought the river was an eight, but a pair of kings would check behind on that board.

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
With hand 2, you should value bet this because there are lots of hands that he might call a bet with, but check if you check. An example would be KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think opponent will check the second nut straight here if we check to him.

[@bsolute_luck]

nope. both are fine and this is coming from a guy who struggles to value bet as well.

[Redd]

Now I haven't read the hand yet; this is a blind reply and I saw the word 'river' in the subject line. So I'm going to go out on a statistical limb here and say: you should value bet.

Now to read the post and see if I agree with my advice.

edit: Yeah, both of these are easy value-bets IMO. I think handling both raises are much more interesting; I'd play both the same, but I can see several situations with reads where I'm 3-betting hand 2.

[RustyCJ]

I honestly considered 3 betting hand 2 but with fullhouse and flush possibilities out I thought my straight was on the weaker end of what he could have, also, since he didn't raise the turn, I figured a flush was more likely.

[DCWildcat]

Check/calling Hand 2 hurts me. Any Q just hit a straight, and god knows how many retarded 2 pairs just got nailed. You're up against an idiot hitting one of those far more often than against a flush or boat. With that in mind, a 3-bet could be in order, depending on the opponent. But it's so close it doesn't really matter.

[ QUOTE ]
Now I haven't read the hand yet; this is a blind reply and I saw the word 'river' in the subject line. So I'm going to go out on a statistical limb here and say: you should value bet.

Now to read the post and see if I agree with my advice.

edit: Yeah, both of these are easy value-bets IMO. I think handling both raises are much more interesting; I'd play both the same, but I can see several situations with reads where I'm 3-betting hand 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice!

hand 1: nh
hand 2: nh

note: in both hands i think you are calling and expecting to lose, but you have the odds to call

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's a bad play on both counts.

Hand 1 would rather not see a 3-bet on the turn.
Hand 2 gets checked through by tons of hands that hero can beat, but hands that beat hero will often find a bet.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 I checkraise the turn.
Hand 2 I checkcall the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't do either of these.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, hand 2 I now think is a value bet after reading the other posts on it.
I like a checkraise on hand 1 though to balance my strategy. If you bet your good hands often on the flop and then checkraise them a good proportion of the time on the turn, more observent opponents will tend to check after you for fear of getting checkraised when you don't want to call a bet on the turn, say when your overcards have missed.
Unobservent opponents will continue to bet and get checkraised when you have got a good hand. Best of both worlds. Also good at knocking opponents out.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a checkraise on hand 1 though to balance my strategy. If you bet your good hands often on the flop and then checkraise them a good proportion of the time on the turn, more observent opponents will tend to check after you for fear of getting checkraised when you don't want to call a bet on the turn, say when your overcards have missed.
Unobservent opponents will continue to bet and get checkraised when you have got a good hand. Best of both worlds. Also good at knocking opponents out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't buy this at all at these levels.

1) If you ever think about check-raising, you need to have a reason to think someone is going to bet it. Check-raising the turn after betting the flop often leads to giving up free cards and lost value.
2) Do you really want to knock out players with a check-raise when they'll call unprofitably with as few as two outs?
3) Yes, I know where you're coming from (HPFAP p. 141), but you're not reading it in the proper context. "THEREFORE, TO AVOID GIVING YOUR HAND AWAY..." does not apply to most of these games since many villains don't read hands well enough. You need to read the entire paragraph, which ends "as long as free cards are not a problem and YOUR OPPONENTS ARE AGGRESSIVE." Lacking those reads, betting has far more value than checking. (See #1)
4) Can you fold to a 3-bet? If not, you don't want to put yourself in a position where the situation implies you are beat, but you're still going to call another 2 BB and get to a showdown.

[adsman]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't buy this at all at these levels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you're probably right. Just trying to throw ideas around. But...

[ QUOTE ]
1) If you ever think about check-raising, you need to have a reason to think someone is going to bet it. Check-raising the turn after betting the flop often leads to giving up free cards and lost value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that players at these levels will often take this as a sign of weakness and bet.


[ QUOTE ]
2) Do you really want to knock out players with a check-raise when they'll call unprofitably with as few as two outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but what if they call two? That would be cool.

[ QUOTE ]
3) Yes, I know where you're coming from (HPFAP p. 141), but you're not reading it in the proper context. "THEREFORE, TO AVOID GIVING YOUR HAND AWAY..." does not apply to most of these games since many villains don't read hands well enough. You need to read the entire paragraph, which ends "as long as free cards are not a problem and YOUR OPPONENTS ARE AGGRESSIVE." Lacking those reads, betting has far more value than checking. (See #1)

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. Though I will say that against players at these levels you don't have to avoid giving your hand away, they're not paying that much attention anyway. Which means you could collect double the bets on the turn that you're used to. Or not.

[ QUOTE ]
4) Can you fold to a 3-bet? If not, you don't want to put yourself in a position where the situation implies you are beat, but you're still going to call another 2 BB and get to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you can't make a point that the players aren't aggressive enough to do this and then go on to say that you stand a fair chance of being 3 bet.

I wouldn't do this all the time and I've never done it before, but I'm slowing trying to incorporate this play into my arsenal and the results have been surprising. It's also been very difficult to incorporate it as I have become so conditioned to just straight up betting my good hands on the turn without considering other options.
I think that it would have been an interesting play in this hand, but whatever. I'm going to have a look through my last few days play and see if I can come up with a good example to post.

Hand 1: I'm not sure if i would bet the river here because UTG+1 has shown strength before and may have hit a set of 5s. i would probably check and fold if UTG+1 raised a CO bet, since between the two of them at least one has probably gotten you beaten.

Hand 2: in a 3 way hand i think MP3 was probably drawing to a straight with a Q. so i would raise.

[lautzutao]

I don't think so. You have to bet both these rivers, and unless you know for sure these guys can't bluff you gotta call their raises.

[lautzutao]

Yeah, with the 1 card straight out there I could see thinking about tossing another bet in here, but it would suck to get capped by the flush...

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4) Can you fold to a 3-bet? If not, you don't want to put yourself in a position where the situation implies you are beat, but you're still going to call another 2 BB and get to a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you can't make a point that the players aren't aggressive enough to do this and then go on to say that you stand a fair chance of being 3 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never gave a frequency with which this might happen. If you find you can't fold when you get 3-bet, then those times that it happens, however often it happens, are situations where you end up an extra 2 BB (well, something like 1.8 BB because there are a few donk occassions where you still win). How significant is it? It depends on how often someone backed into trips. I will suggest that a villain betting at you will increase the probability that someone does have trips and therefore increase the probability you get 3-bet, but I don't have any overall measure of frequency. It may be 1% of the time and therefore insignificant - but it's still on the list of potential worries. (If it happens 10% of the time, your EV shifts by about .2 BB, so it doesn't need to happen very often to start to cause problems.)

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't do this all the time and I've never done it before, but I'm slowing trying to incorporate this play into my arsenal and the results have been surprising. It's also been very difficult to incorporate it as I have become so conditioned to just straight up betting my good hands on the turn without considering other options.
I think that it would have been an interesting play in this hand, but whatever. I'm going to have a look through my last few days play and see if I can come up with a good example to post.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's always worth considering. But the play should be straightforward betting with your strong hands UNTIL you have a reason to do otherwise (ie aggressive villain, players who will call two bets cold with just a pair... things like that).