K8s with position

<font color="purple"> Villian is 61/2/.5, only 50 hands </font>

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (8 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 8 BB

[Nick Royale]

Raise the flop.

[Russ McGinley]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

*bump*

[@bsolute_luck]

SMALL POT: i don't mind NOT raising the flop. other than QJ, our hand can stand to let people make a second best hand. they'd have to catch their 5-3 outer or catch runner-runner non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif

that said: your turn and river don't make much sense to me. what suddenly changed that you needed to get rid of SB and get HU with a possibly dominated hand?

[ QUOTE ]
SMALL POT: i don't mind NOT raising the flop. other than QJ, our hand can stand to let people make a second best hand. they'd have to catch their 5-3 outer or catch runner-runner non-/images/graemlins/heart.gif

that said: your turn and river don't make much sense to me. what suddenly changed that you needed to get rid of SB and get HU with a possibly dominated hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know the turn was the wrong decision, that's why I posted.
FYI. I panicked on the spade turn. With SB still behind me on the river it would have made a call a harder decision and if he doesn't have the K but does have spades or SD, it extracts more money from him and the aggression factor of villian pretty much negated a 3 bet.



I wanted to get people's preferred turn lines here.

I bumped this because I DOUBLE HATE a flop raise.

[detruncate]

One or both of your opponents will almost certainly be making a mistake if they make it to the river for even 1 bet. Your 8 kicker isn't bad, but you'll still be drawing fairly often vs a passive-seeming bettor. You have plenty of outs when behind.

Call the turn and bet the river UI if checked to.

Edit: Call the flop. Your hand can stand some company in this small pot.

[Disconnected]

At first, I thought it was OK to slowplay this flop, since the pot is small, but I think a raise is better here. The pot isn't tiny, and any gutshot -- especially one with an A -- will have decent implied odds to stick around if you just call the flop, and the pot isn't tiny. So, make it unprofitable for the weak draws here, and get anyone also on a flush draw to give you more.

I think I'd bet the river. A stronger K would have probably 3-bet the turn, and a weaker K or pair &lt; TP may pay off. Villain is passive, so I think you can get away if he raises.

[Aaron W.]

Raise the flop. It's a win-win situation where you win more by raising than by calling. Remember if you win this pot, most of the time it will be with a pair of kings and not a flush.

[Rev. Good Will]

as others have said, raise the flop

why the river check?

Raise the flop. You win more often with top pair than with the flush. I would go for overcalls in this small pot with a pairless (or small pair) with the flush draw.

That said, if you do call the flop, I would rather call the turn as well. Any hand that's still drawing is drawing pretty thin against your TP+FD, and it's possible you're behind the villain.

I would probably value-bet the river.

Sorry To be a stupid noob, but where can I find a key to all those abbreviations? (UTG+1, +1EV, ect)

I'm still STRONGLY against a flop raise.

Any GS draws don't have the odds to draw.

If my K is good at the moment, I'm quite happy to let the worse K/ lower pair keep betting my hand for me/drawing slim. I'm quite happy to let any Ace stay in and draw to 2 or 3 outs. With QJ staying in no matter, an A is bad news regardless.

If my K is not good at the moment, I don't see any point whatsoever to try to isolate myself with a possibly better K. Plus if it's no good, I want as many people in padding the pot for when I make my flush.

As for the turn onwards, I like the line already suggested, call the turn and bet the river if checked to.

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. It's a win-win situation where you win more by raising than by calling. Remember if you win this pot, most of the time it will be with a pair of kings and not a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO. It's a lose-lose situation.
If my K is good. I have huge equity and wouldn't mind more dollars in the pot.
If my K is no good. I have ~40% equity and trying to isolate myself putting in 50% of the money doesn't seem like a crash hot idea.

Give me one more caller between me and the bettor, I'd raise.

Due to my relative position, this is a hand I'm more than glad to call/3bet.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO. It's a lose-lose situation.
If my K is good. I have huge equity and wouldn't mind more dollars in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your K is good, you want to protect your hand the 65% of the time the flush doesn't come.

[ QUOTE ]
If my K is no good. I have ~40% equity and trying to isolate myself putting in 50% of the money doesn't seem like a crash hot idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

If your K is not good - meh. You still win because you've got 8 SB of dead money in the pot when you're compelled to call a flop 3-bet. So maybe you lose 10% of 3 SB (= .3 SB). You win about 3.2 SB because you've managed to get yourself heads up with a monster draw AND you're going to get paid off when it hits.

[El Tigre]

im definietly for not raising the flop. I think that your kings may not be good, and if so pushing out others hurts your flush draw ability. OK that sentence sucked. I like waiting till the turn to pop it. I doubt a gutshot is calling 2.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

string bet?

[ QUOTE ]

If your K is not good - meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of Villians extremely passive nature, I took this to be case a good 80% of the time.


FWIW. Results in white.

<font color="white">The stupid passive muppet turned of KQ </font>

[ QUOTE ]
im definietly for not raising the flop. I think that your kings may not be good, and if so pushing out others hurts your flush draw ability. OK that sentence sucked. I like waiting till the turn to pop it. I doubt a gutshot is calling 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you raise the turn if you figure to have a worse hand, particularly on a card that hasn't helped you?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that your kings may not be good...

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything else is fine. What tells you that Hero's king isn't good? The fact that a villan has bet into you? You're going to have to show me better than a VPIP of 61, combined with a PAF of .5 (for instance, how does that break down by street? has he even gotten past the flop? what's he betting when it's checked to him on the flop?) to make me think that top pair, middle kicker with a strong redraw is behind, here.

Kwaz, this is twice you've gotten into this particular dogfight...different hands, true, but the same fight about an aggressive line vs. a passive line on the flop. In both cases, you've been told by the people you're currently asking for advice on your own hand (I think the last one was somebody else's hand, but I'm too drunk to look it up) to play it one way and you've argued that it should be played the other way. First, doesn't that tell you something? And, second, if you're just going to argue with the advice, pretty soon people are going to stop giving it.

[bozlax]

OMG. It is a bad beat post, after all.

Kwaz, there's a post floating around somewhere about the relationship between VPIP and PAF...what it boils down to is, the higher the VPIP, the lower the PAF can be to still be aggressive. 61/x/.5 isn't postflop passive...it's more like somewhat aggressive.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

If your K is not good - meh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of Villians extremely passive nature, I took this to be case a good 80% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This smells results-oriented.

I'm not sure where you get "extremely" passive nature. His AF stats aren't relevant after 50 hands, so you would have needed some sort of direct read on villain that you didn't mention. Also, your K is more likely to be good because villain bet second-to-last to act on the flop. If he had bet into the field, you would have more of a reason to think he has a better king. His VPIP is large enough that he's capable of limping many kings worse than yours.

You're also failing to see the benefit of having villains cold-call with hands that shouldn't be cold-calling. Those are large mistakes which add to your profit (in huge amounts in this case). You win more from one player making this mistake than two players calling one bet getting only slightly bad odds.

So do you plan to always call the flop in this scenario?

Evaluating how often your K is good affects how the rest of the hand plays a lot, I think. The more certain you are your K is good, the more correct raising somewhere in the hand for value and protection becomes. The less certain you are, the more correct calling down, and folding the river having missed your draw becomes. Obviously you're calling the river the majority of the time without such a strong read, but at the same time, raising somewhere in the hand may buy you a free card/showdown along with value and protect your hand when it's good. Without a strong read and with such a strong draw, I'm raising somewhere in the hand as a default.

[ QUOTE ]

Kwaz, this is twice you've gotten into this particular dogfight...different hands, true, but the same fight about an aggressive line vs. a passive line on the flop. In both cases, you've been told by the people you're currently asking for advice on your own hand (I think the last one was somebody else's hand, but I'm too drunk to look it up) to play it one way and you've argued that it should be played the other way. First, doesn't that tell you something? And, second, if you're just going to argue with the advice, pretty soon people are going to stop giving it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This upset me because I respect your opinion.
The back and forth of arguments is what I thought this site is supposed to be all about.

I'm a 2-3BB\100 player, as I'm sure you are. If we differ on this point so much and I'm so wrong, I must be doing something somewhere else in my game a lot better than you to make up for it.

People's opinions differ.
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nick Royale
[ QUOTE ]
i dont mind NOT raising the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
@bsolute Luck
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aaron W.
[ QUOTE ]
Call the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Detruncate
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rev. Goodwill

And thank the poker gods for it. If we all agreed, this site would be as boring as bat [censored].

I like to argue points because that's how I learn. I like to argue points with solid reasons as to why I do things aswell.

If I was just saying you're wrong and telling you to shove it up your pooper, I'd think it was justified.

I enjoy the way you go about posts and always look forward to them.

I'm overjoyed when I'm proven wrong and I'm not too big to say that I was wrong.

I appreciate all comments on my posts, whether they agree or disagree and thanks to all those who do respond.

I especially enjoy your posts Boz.

IMHO This one was well below standard.

I think I'll cry myself to sleep and just lurk for a while.