Bad heads up . . . need advice

This is my first time here. I play a lot of sit n go's online, and find that I almost always place, but rarely first. Usually I come in second. I am playing NLHE for $10. I know that I am weak heads up, so I am wondering if anyone knows of any books out there that could help me. I think my main problem seems to be playing hands like a K2 to a raise. I think I should be playing it (especially when they raise every hand) but I'm not sure. I do fine playing big hands and small cards like suited connectors, but anything else I don't know what I am doing. Any advice would be appreciated.

[splashpot]

Post specific hands.

[bluefeet]

Check out the links in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1918735 &fpart=&PHPSESSID=) - section 2.10.

Not sure of the structure you're playing under, but during most PP/turbo HU situations, there is little room for finesse. Check out Strasser's "Heads up evaluation" thread link in the post above. This level of aggression is fairly standard when the blinds dictate such a sudden finally.

When the blinds are not so large in relation to your stacks, there really is no fast rule for raising/calling standards. It becomes MUCH more about the information you've gathered on your opponent than it does each others hands. For the same reason, posting these situations also does little good. Given the time/chips, you need to mix up your play quite a bit - looking him up, bluffing, etc., etc., all to gain information to make your next play more optimal.

But like I said, usually at some point the blinds will dictate that you throw posturing and such out the window. Lean hard on your open aggression and you'll fair better more times than not.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I play a lot of sit n go's online, and find that I almost always place

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I wouldn't worry too much. This would make you the greatest SNG player alive, so a paucity of firsts should hardly matter.

Irieguy

I'm sorry is that sarcasm? I'm looking for help with heads up. Placeing third is hardly worth the effort at the stakes I am playing, and second is frustrating. I'm playing $10 ones, and I am a better player than most at this level, which is why I place about 75% of the time. If I were playing for more than $10 at a time, than no, I would not place as often as I do, I would probably get my ass kicked, so there is no reason to make it sound like I was being obnoxious by saying that I place a lot. If you have advice for where I can find help with heads up play than that would be appreciated.

[lastchance]

<10x BB, it's all about push/fold.
10-30x BB is about bluffing preflop and postflop.
30x BB+ is about having actual skill.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a better player than most at this level, which is why I place about 75% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this were true long term, you would be the greatest SNG of all time. No sarcasm. Most good players hit around 40%.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry is that sarcasm? I'm looking for help with heads up. Placeing third is hardly worth the effort at the stakes I am playing, and second is frustrating. I'm playing $10 ones, and I am a better player than most at this level, which is why I place about 75% of the time. If I were playing for more than $10 at a time, than no, I would not place as often as I do, I would probably get my ass kicked, so there is no reason to make it sound like I was being obnoxious by saying that I place a lot. If you have advice for where I can find help with heads up play than that would be appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying that you finish ITM 75% of the time and then asking for help is like going to a track coach and telling him you can run 100mph but you would like him to help you run faster.

You can't run 100mph, so as long as you go around saying that it will be difficult for you to get people to take you seriously and spend their time and energy trying to help you.

Irieguy

I'll keep out of your forum then Irie. Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels like I am placing much more often than I am not. I've made enough money (by my standards) playing them, that I am certainly winning more than losing. At these low levels it isn't difficult to double up and watch most of the table lose on all in's that they shouldnt be in. If I am over estimating my win percentage it is simply because I have taken the money I have won over the last month and estimated the number of games I've played. I took that at about a 75% win. Maybe I am completely wrong . . . maybe that isnt a big enough time period to be accurate at all. I didn't really see the need for the way you respoded to the post. So if I am wrong, and I am placing less than 50 % of the time, and most of that being second or third place, would I be ok with asking this forum about improving on heads up play?

[Village Idiot]

Here is what I use as a general guideline playing heads up.

Heads up approx. 7 out of every 8 hands are battles between unpaired cards.

You will almost always have the odds to call from the small blind.
Say the blinds are 500/1,000

The pot is 1,500 and it costs the small blind 500 to call.
You are getting 3-1 to call.
There are very few hands you will be up against that you will give you odds worse than 3-1 pre flop.
This means you can call with any two cards.

If the big blind raises on you frequently and you have called with 3-2 off then it's a different issue.
See below.

Position matters more. Unless someone gets all in you already know who will have position for the entire hand.
Unlike a larger table where you may be able to get enough people to fold to take position, unless someone goes all in you know what position you will have the entire hand.

Playing the Small Blind per Harrington
At least call from the small blind with any two cards, unless your opponent has been raising frquently from the BB.
Then toss bad hands that are in the bottom 20% of starting hands heads up.
These are,
Suited non-pairs - 82, 73, 72, 63, 62, 53, 52, 43, 42, 32
Unsuited non-pairs - 94-92, 84, 83, 75, 74,73, 72, 65, 64, 63, 62, 54, 53, 52, 43, 42, 32

It's a potential raising hand if you have a hand in the top 40% of starting hands and both players stacks are under 10X (BB+SB+antes).
If both stacks are 10X(BB+SB+antes) or over then any hand in the top 30% is a potential raising hand.

If you call and are raised, then call with any hand in the top 30% of starting hands.

If you call and are reraised all in call with any hand in the top 20%.

If you raise and are reraised call with any pair or any hand in the top 10% of hands.
Harrington states that 80% of reraises are made with 2 high cards, which is why you call with any pair.
You may want to call with the top 20% hands if you are getting odds of 3-1 or better.

If stacks are large compared to the blinds 10X (BB+SB+antes) or better then he says call with 6's or better or AJ or better.

Playing in the Big Blind per Harrington.
You will be out of position so you want to end the hand as fast as possible unless you have a monster and are trying to trap.

If the SB calls and both stacks are 10X or less then raise with the top 30% of hands.
If the stacks are larger then tighten up to the top 20% of hands.

If the SB raises call with any top 30% hand and reraise with any top 20% hand.

If the SB raises all in then call with any top 20% hand.

If he hasn't been raising much, then tighten up to calling with any top 20% hand and reraising with any top 10% hand.

Top 10% Hands
Pairs: AA-66
Suited non-pairs: AK-A8, KQ-KJ
Unsuited non-pairs: AK-AT

Top 20% Hands
All of the above plus
Pairs: 55
Suited non-pairs: A7-A3, KT-K8, QJ, QT
Unsuited non-pairs: A9-A7, KQ-KT, QJ

Top 30% Hands
All of the above plus
Pairs: 44
Suited non-pairs: A2, K7-K5, Q9, Q8, JT, J9
Unsuited non-pairs: A6-A3, K9-K7, QT

[/ QUOTE ]

[DrPhysic]

I was given good advice a year or two ago about learning to play short or HU. Get on PokerStars and play $5.50 HU SNGs until you win at them, then move up. I played 4-6 HU SNGs a day for 6 months. Seemed to help a bit.

To answer your specific question:

Here are some heads up or shorthanded references that may help.

Brunson SS NLHE “Short Handed play” p510.
Brunson SS NLHE “Short Handed play” p618
Ciaffone, Improve Your Poker, “Shorthanded Poker”, p36.
Ciaffone, Middle Limit Holdem Poker, “Shorthanded Play”, p306.
Sklansky, Theorey of Poker, ch 21 “Heads Up on the End”, p199 (Only partially applicable to HU play, read in context),
Sklansky & Malmuth, HEPFAP, Part 5, “Playing Short Handed”, p183.
Sklansky, HEP, “Head Up vs Multi-Way”, p70 (this is really about multi-way, you have to invert his logic).
Suzuki, Poker Tournament Strategies, “Playing Short-Handed Poker”, p103.
Sklansky, TPFAP, “Down to 2 Players”, p86.
Malmuth, Poker Essays, “Playing Shorthanded, Part 1&2, p151.
There is a reference in Vorhaus, Killer Poker, but I can’t find it.
King Yao, Weighing the Odds in Holdem Poker, p250 (this is a limit holdem book)
Harrington, Harrington on Holdem Vol II, Part 11 Short tables, p275
Harrington, Harrington on Holdem Vol II, Part 12 Heads Up, p363

Some of these are short references on HU, not worth the investment just for the HU information. Read if you have it. The one I would buy just for the HU section is HOH Vol II.

The other comments on this thread simply amount to "Your sample size is too small, come back with real stats on your SECOND thousand SNG's.

Doc /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kitaristi0]

While I really enjoy Heads UP SNGs, I find that they have very little in common with say playing HU at the end of a Party 10 man SNG. At Party you either go AI or fold, whereas in HU SNGs you actually have to "play poker".

[Degen]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad heads up . . . need advice

[/ QUOTE ]

push more

[valenzuela]

first of all, Irie was being sarcastic. he always does the same thing with noobs.
75% is too low for the 11s, specially if youre not placing first enough. i would seriously recomend fixing some leaks, Heads-up you should always fold to those donks who raise all-in, once u get a hand like AT u can call them, to ure surprise those idiots will have somehting like Q5.
EDIT: I just woke up so this post doesnt make sense,, I still kinda like it so I wont delete it.

[Sabrazack]

This advice is really great, however sometimes when your opponent has pushed alot you need to show that you have the guts to call him, so sometimes when you pick up hands like 74s or 93o you should call just to discourage him from pushing so much.

(As for some serious advice, push allin almost every hand if your stack is less than 10xBB. You can't really go wrong)

[SonnyJay]

Just a couple general statements:

One, your guess that
[ QUOTE ]
I have taken the money I have won over the last month...maybe that isnt a big enough time period to be accurate at all

[/ QUOTE ]
is completely true. If you've played enough SNGs, most players have months with results that would seem to make them the greatest player alive, and other months that would make it seem like they should just quit before they lose any more money. I'm glad you're doing well over the last month, but the general standard before your stats mean anything is 1000 SNGs. Get the SNG tracker program (there's a link in the FAQ) so that it will track your stats accurately for you. If 1000 SNGs go by and you're running better than 40% ITM and 25% ROI, then you've done very, very well.

Second, splashpot's suggestion to post specific hands is probably the best idea right now. I've read a lot of the books out there and there's definitely value to them in understanding concepts, but getting solid advice from people familiar with the games you play is more valuable for your specific circumstance. If there's a HU hand or series of HU hands that you weren't sure about, post and let people weigh in.

Third, while it's hard to come up with any really meaningful insights without actually knowing how you play, in general people with a good number of money finishes but no 1sts tend to not be aggressive enough once it gets shorthanded. I suspect this may be an issue because of statements like
[ QUOTE ]
I think I should be playing it (especially when they raise every hand)

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At these low levels it isn't difficult to double up and watch most of the table lose on all in's that they shouldnt be in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Believe me, I'm aware that plenty of low stakes players make bad all ins, but one of the things that a lot of relatively new players don't realize is how certain situations make it correct to push with hands usually considered trash. This is especially true when the blinds get large. While you may not need to push every hand heads up, you should be very aggressive with hands you wouldn't usually be aggressive with. In general, if you're going to play a hand and either you or your opponent has <10 BB, you should be open pushing. The higher the blinds are, the worse hands you'll need to be pushing with (obviously since the blinds will eat your stack if you just sit there). Don't be afraid of pushing less than optimal hands because someone may call with a better hand. You will often fold hands better than yours and win the blinds uncontested, you're rarely a huge dog when you get called, and you get the additional bonus of having someone flip out at you and call you a fish when your T8 sucks out on their AQ. Hours of entertainment.

I know this advice is broad, but post hands and the forum can give you better advice.

-SonnyJay

[SonnyJay]

[ QUOTE ]
(As for some serious advice, push allin almost every hand if your stack is less than 10xBB. You can't really go wrong)

[/ QUOTE ]

OP: I know that there have been sarcastic responses, but this isn't a horrible rule of thumb strategy.

-SonnyJay

[DrPhysic]

Other than the obvious, uneven initial stacks, would you like to expound on why that should be true?

Doc

[bball904]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll keep out of your forum then Irie. Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels like I am placing much more often than I am not. I've made enough money (by my standards) playing them, that I am certainly winning more than losing. At these low levels it isn't difficult to double up and watch most of the table lose on all in's that they shouldnt be in. If I am over estimating my win percentage it is simply because I have taken the money I have won over the last month and estimated the number of games I've played. I took that at about a 75% win. Maybe I am completely wrong . . . maybe that isnt a big enough time period to be accurate at all. I didn't really see the need for the way you respoded to the post. So if I am wrong, and I am placing less than 50 % of the time, and most of that being second or third place, would I be ok with asking this forum about improving on heads up play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can help here. It's all about daily affirmations. Twice a day, look in the mirror and repeat the following until it sinks in....

I AM WE TODD DID.
I AM SOFA KING WE TODD DID.

Seriously now, if you don't have the competency to take a few notes recording your results, there is no point in giving you information you can do nothing with.

[Lori]

[ QUOTE ]
Saying that you finish ITM 75% of the time and then asking for help is like going to a track coach and telling him you can run 100mph but you would like him to help you run over hurdles

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[Simplistic]

for party SNGs i find in the 22s that once you're down to 3, if you have over 3/8's of the chips in play you can pretty much hammer the other 2 people into oblivion through judicious raising. the vast majority of opponents are far too weak and unwilling to call/play back with anything but premium hands.

[KJ o]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll keep out of your forum then Irie. Perhaps I am wrong, but it feels like I am placing much more often than I am not.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious from your posts that you haven't read much of what has been written here. On the internet, as well as in real life, it is usually considered impolite to just bump right in without doing any kind of homework first.

Thus, you deserve the heckle you get. Despite this, I will give you good, serious and honest advice:

Keep stats. You have no clue today how good your results are. If you don't know that, how will you know if any changes you make are an improvement or not? I'd recommend Poker Tracker.

Don't posts stats until you have a fair amount of tourneys under your belt. Elementary statistics or reading this forum will tell you why.

Posting interesting hands is always OK, even if you have played very little. There's no particular reason why you couldn't run into interesting hands in your very first SnG.

[wmspringer]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than the obvious, uneven initial stacks, would you like to expound on why that should be true?

[/ QUOTE ]

What will the blinds be like by the time you're HU in a Party SnG?

[DrPhysic]

Point taken. ur right.

Doc