A tough decision

[suited_ace]

This is the second hand of a $20+2.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

MP1 (t800)
Hero (t770)
MP3 (t800)
CO (t800)
Button (t770)
SB (t920)
BB (t770)
UTG (t770)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t175</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero calls t100.

<font color="green">The re-raise usually means JJ+, AK, but the hand I see here more often than any other is QQ and there's always those donks doing this w/ 88, even stuff like AQ, AJs.</font>

Flop: (t390) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

<font color="green">Good news: I hit TPTK. Bad news: Villain might just have hit trip queens. Maybe I'm seeing too many monsters under my bed, but in any case I'm checking behind here. Sort of a way ahead/way behind spot.</font>

Turn: (t390) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t125</font>, Hero calls t125.

<font color="green">His bet doesn't mean much to me, there's a ton of hands that bet this turn. I'm torn between calling (which basically assumes I'm ahead) or raising to something like 320 and fold to a push. I ended up calling.</font>

River: (t640) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t225</font>, Hero?

<font color="green">I'm almost folding this, but then again I have TPTK in a $22. What would you do? Why?

[kyro]

I posted a very similar hand to this one about 2 months ago or so. I remember it being very balanced on whether you wanted to push this flop or just call it down. I prefer to call this down. WA/WB situation here.

*Edit* It's a little different, but here's the hand I'm talking about. Read through it.

kyro wants to fold top two! (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=singletable&amp;Number=3384226 &amp;Forum=,,,f22,,,&amp;Words=&amp;Searchpage=3&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main =3384226&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;Name=10803&amp;date range=1&amp;newerval=3&amp;newertype=m&amp;olderval=1&amp;oldertyp e=m&amp;bodyprev=#Post3384226)

*Second Edit* I was reading through that thread and I found it amusing that this was before Megabet turned into a giant troll. He had very insightful things to say rather than "I'm better than you and stanzee sucks!" I miss that /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Seadood228]

I'd play it the same. There are more than enough donkeys in the 22s that will do this with TT to make this a pretty standard call on the river.

[runner4life7]

i bet the flop thats just me, but pretty easy call on the river i think

[suited_ace]

Does anyone raise the river?

[DMACM]

Id push preflop, if not then Id definately push on this flop. I think your ahead here way more often then not.

[pokerlaw]

did you think about reraising the turn?

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Id push preflop, if not then Id definately push on this flop. I think your ahead here way more often then not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing PF is not good. The BB reraised you big. He COULD be a donk, but a good portion of the time he's either going to have a pocket pair in which case you're on the sucky side of a coinflip or crushed.

[Village Idiot]

Why not bet the flop after he checks ahead of you to find out where you are ?
I think there may be a chance if he does have trips that he raises fearing a straight draw or that you have hit two pair and are drawing to a boat.
If he reraises my bet on the flop I'm done.
It's the 2nd hand and I'd play as if he is a good solid tight player until he proves otherwise.

Just checkig behind tells you nothing IMO.
If you also had a draw to a hand that beats trips after the flop then I agree with checking and taking the free card.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Why not bet the flop after he checks ahead of you to find out where you are ?
I think there may be a chance if he does have trips that he raises fearing a straight draw or that you have hit two pair and are drawing to a boat.

Just checkig behind tells you nothing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. What actions that he can take will give you information about where you are in the hand.

2. What is so important about knowing "where you are in the hand." I'm genuinely curious if there is a reason as opposed to throwing around a catchy phrase you heard someone use once.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone raise the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

... BARF. No don't ever do that. What calls you that you beat? And how many hands that you beat push over you. Do not do that.

I like how you played it though. I think pf with position and not that much back to you it's a good call. Might as well check the flop as it is essentially way ahead / way behind. Might as well let the junk take a shot or think they're good. Turn I don't like raising for the same reason. River just call. I think a fold is no good considering how much you've underepresented your hand and how much people suck.

Nice hand.

[phoenix6]

It is so difficult to play these hands early with no reads.

To the BB, your bet of 3xbb + 30 for the limpers just means you have a hand you don't want to play in a multi-way pot. In general, that means you don't have small pairs or suited connectors, so mid-high pocket pairs or high cards are your most logical holdings.

His re-raise means he wants to play you heads up -- out of position. A call by him may convince a limper, or both to tag along for the price. So, the good news is, you got what you wanted. I guess, the bad news is, now what?

I think given the way the hand played out, you should be concerned about QQ, or AA. AK makes sense as well, but you are holding that hand. Often bets aren't deceptive. Sometimes bets mean exactly what they appear to mean. He could have JJ, or even TT/99 he couldn't get away from and didn't like the two overcards.

I think at these levels a re-raise pre-flop and checking this particular flop screams: Fancy Play Syndrome. The turn bet is a whiffed check/raise, not a stab at the pot. The river bet is a milking bet. I think you are behind.

I'd put on my "weak tight" hat and fold.

[Karak567]

I am all-in on the flop and I do not see any other option here at a 22. I cannot believe we are playing scared of QQ.

[sng-sam]

[ QUOTE ]
I am all-in on the flop and I do not see any other option here at a 22. I cannot believe we are playing scared of QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to say this is my line too. This is a f'n 22 this guy could have reraised you with TT or AQ easily. I'm ready to go down on this one AFTER the flop. Preflop push is just Horrible IMHO.

Straight Flushes,

SAM

[bruce]

I don't agree with you thought process. You're playing this hand as though it's the first hand of the WSOP ME with a 10000 chipstack.

Either fold BTF or push. You don't have enough money to call BTF. With all the dead money this is an easy push for me.

Once I flop TPTK with a short stack my chips one way or the other are going into the middle.

This is a $22 SNG, don't turn this into rocket science.

Bruce

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I am all-in on the flop and I do not see any other option here at a 22. I cannot believe we are playing scared of QQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does not maximize value at all.

I think if you bet the flop, maybe around 2/3 of the pot, you might have a better idea if you are ahead, behind or in position to join the masses who go up in flames with top pair/top kicker. KK, QQ, maybe not KQoff could be behind a big re-raise preflop on an early hand and possible lurking donkies. I sure as hell wouldn't raise on the river. You gave nothing more than a gut read on calling his river bet which looks like a milker in my opinion. What happened?

[1C5]

That is a tough one...

Not many people reraise to 175 in the 22s without something decent so you could see AA KK or QQ or AK here. AQ or AJ or TT or JJ is also possible though.

I like betting on the flop here.

[suited_ace]

Thanks for all the feedback.

1. To those who said "bet the flop", what's your plan for the rest of the hand?

2. To those who said that they're trying to get all their chips in on the flop (basically you're assuming I'm ahead), am I not getting more value slowplaying this? Wouldn't a river push after his bet make sense then?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all the feedback.

1. To those who said "bet the flop", what's your plan for the rest of the hand?

2. To those who said that they're trying to get all their chips in on the flop (basically you're assuming I'm ahead), am I not getting more value slowplaying this? Wouldn't a river push after his bet make sense then?

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with almost everything said in this thread, and it sounds like you're feeling that vibe. I don't know why everyone is so anxious to find out where they are when they can get to showdown for almost the same price. And if you get all your chips in on this flop you are not ahead.

His flop check after preflop re-raise is ultra suspicious. I probably can't get away from this either but I'm thinking QQ here too.

[Simplistic]

this thread makes me laugh because the STT forum generates responses that don't seem very standard at all to a cash game player or even an MTTer.

I view STTs as mini MTTs, good hand, push edges early, if you're wrong you move onto the next. this might be a leak because i'm failing to comprehend that the reason you push small edges early is because in MTTs you want to accumulate chips to get you deep where the payouts are much larger. either way i'm on a quest to finish 1000 sngs and we'll see how my strategy goes.

in regards to the hand, 2nd hand of a SNG, no real read.
hero raises 5X BB after 2 EP limpers, indicating strength, villain donk re-raises to 175 which is less than 3x original raise. range of hands i'd put would be JJ+ and AK as OP mentioned. hero calls, indicates either a trap with a big pair or AK.

villain is first to act and checks on a KQrag rainbow board. either he's not afraid of a straight draw or he's weak.

hand range is consistent with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, there's one hand that hero's ahead of and one hand where hero ties. however I discount AA because a KQ flop isn't pretty and I suspect AA bets here a good percentage of the time. KK is a one-outer which may or may no be likely. QQ is likely.

hero checks behind.

why did you check behind? afraid of monsters? pot control? want a cheap showdown?

people advocating a check behind, what happens if villain wakes up on later streets as he did? you're essentially lost in the hand and either muck it or call down. if you're going to muck, why the [censored] did you call the pre-flop re-raise in the first place? hoping to flop a straight?

next street brings another brick. this card helps somebody 1% of the time. villain bets a weak amount into the pot. hero calls. raising the turn is worse than betting the flop.
but in the absence of a flop bet I raise pot and fold to a push.

in this case hero calls. (why?)

river brings another brick and villain fires another weak bet out. why does villain bet so little and again after being called on turn? he's either weak and wants a cheapshowdown or he's value betting.

what does hero do here? and if people are advocating fold on the river after calling the turn, that play is horrible. plan what the hell you're going to do on later streets. if you're going to fold again to a weak bet then you should have folded the turn.

raising with TPTK is bad. calling is good.

in conclusion, either bet the flop and fold to a raise, if called check behind and control the pot. not once in the action did hero take control of the betting, esepcially with position. yarg.OTHERWISE, check/call down, especially when villain bets so weakly.

you guys need to think more about what villain is doing, what villain's hand range is and you also need to plan what you're going to do on later streets. calling turn only to fold to a river bet is just spewing.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
in conclusion, either bet the flop and fold to a raise, if called check behind and control the pot. not once in the action did hero take control of the betting, esepcially with position. yarg.OTHERWISE, check/call down, especially when villain bets so weakly.

you guys need to think more about what villain is doing, what villain's hand range is and you also need to plan what you're going to do on later streets. calling turn only to fold to a river bet is just spewing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, you could check behind on the flop and control the pot that way from the get go because there's absolutely no sense in betting if you want to maximize value when ahead. (edit: I see you give this as an option, misread your post the first time)

Of course, you're right in that even thinking about folding the river is terrible.

[suited_ace]

My passive approach to the hand is due to the fact that there's a very good chance that this is a way ahead / way behind spot, so I'm trying to keep the pot as small as possible and get the cheapest possible showdown.

Betting the flop and having a plan of folding to a raise could be an option, but if villain indeed has QQ, he's most probably just calling my flop bet, and I'd get to the turn with just as much information and a much bigger pot.

Why do you say raising the turn is worst than betting the flop?

[Simplistic]

[ QUOTE ]
My passive approach to the hand is due to the fact that there's a very good chance that this is a way ahead / way behind spot, so I'm trying to keep the pot as small as possible and get the cheapest possible showdown.

Betting the flop and having a plan of folding to a raise could be an option, but if villain indeed has QQ, he's most probably just calling my flop bet, and I'd get to the turn with just as much information and a much bigger pot.

Why do you say raising the turn is worst than betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
if you bet the flop say fire out 250(arbitrary), his options are fold/call/raise.

a raise and your hand is mucked. a bet gives you the chance to win the pot right there if he's got JJ or a draw. a smooth call and you're pretty close to being done with the hand but you have position on him the rest of the hand.

for the price of 250 you find out something.

on the turn if he bets 125 into a pot of 390, raising here is worse because any meaningful raise is at least 375+, so you're committing more chips here in what you say could very well be a WA/WB situation. a donk min-raise is out of the question.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Id push preflop, if not then Id definately push on this flop. I think your ahead here way more often then not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing PF is not good. The BB reraised you big. He COULD be a donk, but a good portion of the time he's either going to have a pocket pair in which case you're on the sucky side of a coinflip or crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like pushing preflop, but I don't mind it, in 1 22 I think you will see AQ or get someone to fold enough to make it slightly +EV.

[Village Idiot]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not bet the flop after he checks ahead of you to find out where you are ?
I think there may be a chance if he does have trips that he raises fearing a straight draw or that you have hit two pair and are drawing to a boat.

Just checkig behind tells you nothing IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. What actions that he can take will give you information about where you are in the hand.

2. What is so important about knowing "where you are in the hand." I'm genuinely curious if there is a reason as opposed to throwing around a catchy phrase you heard someone use once.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. If I bet the flop and he raises me then at this level of play I'm done with the hand this early in the game.
Making a bet of about 1/2 the pot here either gets Villain to
Fold
Call
Raise

If he folds great.
If he calls, then you still have info. that Villain thinks he is ahead or has a draw to enough outs to call your bet.
If he raises I'm thinking I'm beat and will lay it down saving me more chips than calling down to the river might cost.
This early in a $22 I assume Villain is a decent tight player unless he prved otherwise in the 1st hand.
While checking gives you the free card chance to hit one of your outs to improve your hand the odds of that aren't great here IMO.

2. I want to either take this down right here with TPTK or give Villain a chance to make a mistake by calling my bet if I'm ahead.
Here Villain has shown weakness by checking.
I want to make a bet and get him to react to try to determine if I'm really ahead or he was trapping and looking for a check/raise.