Bet/Bet/Check-raise line [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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SlantNGo

10-29-2005, 01:37 AM

Villain was 54/20, and had a very high river AF. However, I suspect that it was more due to seeing less showdowns than usual for a LAG than to heavy betting and raising. My thinking here is that a C/R will extract 2 bets out of him when he's got a lower PP and get at least the same 1, if not 2 bets out of him when he's holding UI overcards. However, that Jack played right into one of the hands he's likely to have IMO (JJ), but I didn't realize this until after the fact. How do you like the play against this type of opponent given this board? What if the river was a blank? (i.e. deuce or a card pairing the board).

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises

10-29-2005, 01:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 54/20, and had a very high river AF. However, I suspect that it was more due to seeing less showdowns than usual for a LAG than to heavy betting and raising. My thinking here is that a C/R will extract 2 bets out of him when he's got a lower PP and get at least the same 1, if not 2 bets out of him when he's holding UI overcards. However, that Jack played right into one of the hands he's likely to have IMO (JJ), but I didn't realize this until after the fact. How do you like the play against this type of opponent given this board? What if the river was a blank? (i.e. deuce or a card pairing the board).

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero raises, 1 fold, MP1 3-bets, 5 folds, Hero caps, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: (7.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is 50/20 I don't think JJ represents a huge portion of his range here. I like it a lot.

aces_dad

10-29-2005, 02:11 AM

This line will work well vs the laggy river player you describe. A better player will be able to check behind but these type of players love to bet when sensing weakness.

20% PFR is more likely to have AJ than JJ and if he has J's you're probably getting raised on the river anyway. I like your line against this villian as it gets a bet from lower PP's and perhaps UI overs like AK.

SoftcoreRevolt

10-29-2005, 02:17 AM

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif This line. Perfect given the read.

yellowjack

10-29-2005, 05:10 AM

I prefer multitabling to having this great a read. If this is not from observation, do you have aggression on each street being displayed?

That aside, nice play.

10-29-2005, 06:53 AM

Great play. I like it w any card but an Ace. If he's folding a lot of rivers, may as well give him a chance to bet.

As you say, if he has a lower pp, he's likely to call anyway. This gives you a chance at 2BB.

If he's playing AT, AQ, AK and he checks behind, it's as if he folded to your bet.

If you bet and he has a Jack, you'd call and end up with the same 2BB.

If you cr and he has a JJ, you can fold to a reraise.

If an Ace comes on the river, I'd probably bet-fold if you're confident of your read.

Stealthy

10-29-2005, 08:09 AM

I like it! I have done this on the turn a few times against the sort of player you described but not the river. Definately something I will be trying. Also if you have the river check-raise in your arsenal (which I currently do not!) you may win yourself a few free showdowns OOP when you want one if an observant player is scared of the check-raise having seen it earlier.

10-29-2005, 09:19 AM

*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

Stealthy

10-29-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If he always bets if checked to but would fold a missed hand then why not let him take a stab at it? The only real risk if if he has backed into a 2 pair or better that has you beat then you open yourself up to an expensive 3 bet. But if your are confident that he will not only bet, but that he will call your raise with an inferior hand then it would appear to be a good stragegy to mix up your game a little. Even if he folds to the check-raise you still win an extra BB as he was likely to have folded to a river lead.

Of course if you cannot be almost certain that your opponent will bet then you should always lead yourself.

10-29-2005, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If he always bets if checked to but would fold a missed hand then why not let him take a stab at it? The only real risk if if he has backed into a 2 pair or better that has you beat then you open yourself up to an expensive 3 bet. But if your are confident that he will not only bet, but that he will call your raise with an inferior hand then it would appear to be a good stragegy to mix up your game a little. Even if he folds to the check-raise you still win an extra BB as he was likely to have folded to a river lead.

Of course if you cannot be almost certain that your opponent will bet then you should always lead yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

almost certain?

assuming you have him beat and he aint 3betting or bet/folding... you only need for him to bet at you 51% for this play to be +ev in comparison to leading....

(.49 * 0 + .51 * 2) > 1

adsman

10-29-2005, 01:08 PM

If he's that aggro I like check-raising the turn and leading the river a lot more.

bjarne

10-29-2005, 02:41 PM

Check-raise turn AND river /images/graemlins/grin.gif

nah, not really, unless I'm the villain (see below). I'm more for checkraising the turn than the river though.

However, against an overly aggro player who actually thinks enough to realize that you think as well, this play may actually work since they don't expect you to be stupid enough to try and check raise twice.

I have fallen into this trap against players I've realized are thinking about the game. When they check again after having check-raised the turn and I sit with a missed draw my line of thought has been going like this:

* He check-raised me on the turn.
* He wouldn't think I'm so stupid I'd fall for it again, so this time his check realy means weakness and the turn c/r was just bluffing.
* I only need my river bluff (or my A-high) to work once in X times (X>5).

Hence, I bet. Get check-raised again and feel like the idiot I am.

SlantNGo

10-29-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he's that aggro I like check-raising the turn and leading the river a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting line... why? But he has shown himself to be not overly aggressive on the flop & turn (AFs in the 1-2 range) with a huge AF on the river combined with low WtSD which makes me believe that he may check behind on the turn but would bet the river.

Anyways, he 3-bet me, I called, and he showed JJ.

Disconnected

10-29-2005, 08:11 PM

Against an aggressive player who will also fold a lot post flop, I think I would bet/call this river. If he's not giving credit to your bets on the flop and turn, he may call with lower pocket pairs, or even AK. He's likely to raise with AJ or JJ-AA, so you can call the raise. If you check, you can elicit a bet from a fair number of hands, but how many inferior hands are going to call your checkraise? Probably not many against a guy who folds a lot vs. a capper, and if you're three bet, you're likely in trouble, but should probably be paying off.

detruncate

10-29-2005, 08:40 PM

Seems like a good opportunity to get sexy.

nh

You could also try a turn c/r for metagame considerations. Given his stats and relative position, you're likely going to be checking to Villain quite often on the turn. We like to get a free river card sometimes and should therefore be c/r'ing with decent hands more frequently than usual.

10-29-2005, 08:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*
I think you have to bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? If he always bets if checked to but would fold a missed hand then why not let him take a stab at it? The only real risk if if he has backed into a 2 pair or better that has you beat then you open yourself up to an expensive 3 bet. But if your are confident that he will not only bet, but that he will call your raise with an inferior hand then it would appear to be a good stragegy to mix up your game a little. Even if he folds to the check-raise you still win an extra BB as he was likely to have folded to a river lead.

Of course if you cannot be almost certain that your opponent will bet then you should always lead yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because someone has a high river AF doesn't mean they bluff all the time.

My decision would be made by his won$at showdown.

If this is reasonably high, I would bet. The reason being, his aggression is warranted.
If it was low, he bluffs too much. Check raise is fine.

IMO. Counting on a bluff on the river is too risky.
He likes his hand or he doesn't. If he doesn't, the pot is big enough that he might call anyway.
If he likes it, you may have missed a 3bet opportunity.

10-29-2005, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If he's that aggro I like check-raising the turn and leading the river a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ]