Status quo on this one?

Right, so it's PP 30-60 and we're ten handed. I've been at the table for three hours and I'm playing pretty tight because i was at work and wasn't bored enough to open up a new bag of tricks. There are three players in the game that are mediocre at best, and that's why i'm playing while i'm at work, also why I was playing tight. This hand might seem very standard, but I'd like you guys to critique, applaud, or bash all to hell if your heart so desires.


Tex is SB, K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Folds around to CO, who raises. ( mediocre player, playing aggressive, but not playing a lot of hands, either)

Button folds, I three bet, BB folds, CO calls.

Flop

J /images/graemlins/spade.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I lead, CO raises, I call.

Turn 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, CO checks behind.

River 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet....


Boringly standard here?

What is villain raising with here on the flop, to, presumably, take a free card besides the obvious choice....?


BTW, do you think small pockets pay off in this spot or do they generally fold without an A or a J???

[bicyclekick]

Check and fold the river.

Thanks, BK, for the input. Could you elaborate a little?

And what do you think the flop raise means in this spot?

[drbk2]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, BK, for the input. Could you elaborate a little?

And what do you think the flop raise means in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

That he either has an Ace and will fire at you again on the turn or check behind on the turn and pay off almost any river.

[Klepton]

the only hand that folds this river is 22-88, and even then i think it would be only 25%.

not that bad though. and i like PF

You dont think he's folding any thing besides a busted draw on the river here?

what about PF? good line by me?


Tex

Thanks. I was thinking that's the right play PF. But you go with the check/fold river UI?

[drbk2]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I was thinking that's the right play PF. But you go with the check/fold river UI?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah everything is fine except for the river bet, which really isn't all that bad either. I agree with Klepton that you probably won't get something better to fold enough to warrant a river bet.

[mmcd]

This is going to be a bad A or a J almost all of the time. He almost certainly doesn't have some kind of a draw if he's at all competant as this is a really stupid board to raise for a free card. You'll get one often enough by just calling.

[Guruman]

!!micro lurker asking a stupid pf question!!

why the threebet pf? It seems like KQs is only marginally better than neutral vs a typical stealing range, and you're oop. Is this purely a value raise?

I can see the advantage of being being able to follow up and represent a piece of this flop, but it seems like you're representing into a player whose range includes quite a bit of this flop as well, especially if you include potential draws from QT and KT.

why not just call and let BB put the extra bet in for you? your hand plays well multiway, and if BB comes along many decisions become much easier.

-----

also,

is villain capable of checking behind on the turn to induce a river bluff?

[bpb]

[ QUOTE ]
the only hand that folds this river is 22-88, and even then i think it would be only 25%.

not that bad though. and i like PF

[/ QUOTE ]

Your average PP 30-60 player hates to fold. In a blind stealing situation, they REALLY hate to fold. In a blind stealing situation with trips on the board, where they hold any pocket pair, they aren't folding unless they misclick.

I see 88-22 folding < 5% of the time here.

Checking may also induce a bluff by a busted straight draw. I'd need a good read to check-fold.

[ QUOTE ]
!!micro lurker asking a stupid pf question!!

[/ QUOTE ]


there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

[JAA]

[ QUOTE ]
!!micro lurker asking a stupid pf question!!

why the threebet pf? It seems like KQs is only marginally better than neutral vs a typical stealing range, and you're oop. Is this purely a value raise?

I can see the advantage of being being able to follow up and represent a piece of this flop, but it seems like you're representing into a player whose range includes quite a bit of this flop as well, especially if you include potential draws from QT and KT.

why not just call and let BB put the extra bet in for you? your hand plays well multiway, and if BB comes along many decisions become much easier.

-----

also,

is villain capable of checking behind on the turn to induce a river bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like KQs is only marginally better than neutral vs a typical stealing range

KQs is a lot more than margnially better against a CO's open-raising range. You have the best hand here a ton of the time. Also, by not 3-betting you will sometimes make it easier for CO to win the hand when you both miss the flop; In other words, a fair amount of the time the preflop aggressor will win these types of hands by default when both players miss. Let that be you, not your opponent. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

but it seems like you're representing into a player whose range includes quite a bit of this flop as well, especially if you include potential draws from QT and KT.

See? You are taking into account that CO could have KT or QT. KQs is ginormous preflop!

- Jags

[eviljeff]

his check on the turn means one of 3 things:

1) free card play for a draw
2) cheap showndown play for a weak made hand
3) getting tricky with a strong hand

based on this, a c/c is always better than a b/f. that being said, you a c/f could easily be better than c/c, but I'm too lazy to count the pot or estimate how often we're in scenario (1).

CO folded.
/images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

TQ and T8 sound like obvious choices but he's dumb not to bet those hands on the turn imo if thats what he had. The CO played that hand awful. I think the only better hands that fold are 22-88. But playing for a free card w/ an underpair is pretty awful poker. Especially since he folded the river. I prob check call here since 22-88 just don't make sense and hope to catch a bluff. Even if he did have 22-88 he'd be dumb to fold this river sincei any two cards could bet that river.

I think he had TQ or T8.

[2ndGoat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
!!micro lurker asking a stupid pf question!!

[/ QUOTE ]


there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

[/ QUOTE ]

and stupid people

dont be so hard on yourself /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Tex,
I dont like your river line, When your opponent raises the flop and checks the turn, he can have all kinds of hands including QT,T8,KT,Q8. In my opinion he either has one of these 4 hands or a weak made hand that he wants to showdown cheaply. Once you get to the river, a bet has no value, for you will just make him fold his busted draws or call with his weak made hand. You shouldve checked the river with the intention of calling all bets since you will snap a bluff enough of the time to make this call profitable. You have the nonpair nuts, theres no reason to bet the river, and theres no way in hell you should fold this river on that board given that action. Checking and calling makes more money in the long run than betting out in my opinion.