Is this wrong?

limit hand... I have AQ in third position. Sorry I don't have the HH. I'm at work. It's pretty simple though.

I have AQ off in UTG+2. UTG raises. I call the 2 bets. (I probably need to 3-bet here but I didn't).

2 seats down 3-bets, guy to his left caps, guy to his left cold-calls the cap, guy to his left also cold-calls the cap, fold, SB fold, BB fold, UTG calls the extra 2 bets.

I fold to 2 more bets. ???

The pot is 22.5 SB's by the time it comes back to me for 2 SB's, with one opponent left to call the cap.

If folding AQ here wrong? The table hadn't been nearly this loose PF, and I figured I was too easily dominated by AK, QQ, KK, AA to even call two more bets even though the pot was huge.

The result of this hand sickened me. I would have taken down like a 30+ BB pot had I seen the flop. Uggg. Results suck but does my play also suck here? I ended the night +30BB's after only 300 hands. Had I stayed in, I leave +60 BB's. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

yeah pretty bad....

3bet in the first place on most tables... definitely call the cap, your implied odds are huge

Yeah, I need to 3-bet this.

For the simple fact that if it comes back to me capped I'm really forced to call 1 more bet.

Since I didn't, and it was 2 more bets to me, I "justified" folding.

Flop came AxQ...river Q... the winner of the 26BB pot had like QT or some nasty crap. I figure it gets over 30 BB's if I'm in it. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[bozlax]

Preflop is a raise or fold situation in poor position with a raise to you, and you're a pretty severe underdog against a "standard" raising range from an early-position raiser. Any read on UTG?

Once you called 2 I don't see why you wouldn't call 2 more in a ginormous pot. You might catch your miracle flop of KJTr.

[bozlax]

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Flop came AxQ...river Q... the winner of the 26BB pot had like QT or some nasty crap. I figure it gets over 30 BB's if I'm in it. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I let you go on this in the OP because I'm not as mean when I'm tired, but GET OVER IT. Don't worry about the results, that has nothing to do with it. And, if you keep doing this, I'm inclined to start believing that this is a bad-beat-why-did-i-fold post and call the moderator.

No read on UTG. I was 5-tabling and it's micro limit. I don't even bother reading opponents unless I see horrific mistakes.

Yeah, I should have called two extra bets when the pot is huge. But I figured with that many callers, the chances that AQ holds up is very minimal.

I think the hand plays much easier if I 3-bet.

No, it's not a bad beat. It's not even possible to have a "bad beat" if you fold PF! lol.

This is exhibit A which should be considered "proof" of why I need to see the flop with this hand. Like you said, KJT and AxQ will happen enough for this to be profitable.

I don't care about the result. Mostly, I was very surprised to see the winner of the hand holding QT. He was the guy who 3-bet PF, too.

?

Had I known prior that QT at this table 3-bets, I 3-bet AQ in a heartbeat.

[sean c]

I would 3-bet or fold pre flop. The way the hand played out i probably call two cold back to me because i'm a sucker for huge pots but the fact is if the table is normal and this type of crap isn't happening often then you are likely dominated in a couple of spots and likely will get sucked into this pot with a second best type hand so folding isn't terrible. You are out of position and stuck between players that will probably do a bunch of betting post flop so if you flop a draw its gonna cost you a bunch. If you flop an ace or queen your kind of married to showdown in a pot this size.

[bozlax]

Nonononononononononononono!

Dude, against _most_ UTG raises, AQo is a loser, and you should have folded it. Especially since you said the table had been tight up to this hand. Only if you knew that UTG was a loose raiser should you have continued, and in that case you should have 3-bet.

And, had you 3-bet, QT likely would have bailed out, along with everybody else except UTG who would've called you and then folded to either your flop raise or turn bet. So, you would've made like, 2BB instead of 30.

You made 2 mistakes in this hand: cold-calling the UTG raise, and then folding to the cap. Including results in a hand where you've lost because you've made mistakes is the definition of a bad beat. Stop worrying about the results...if you had stayed in and the board had come ATxxT you'd still have made the same first mistake, and it still would've caused you to lose the hand. Do you see?

[bozlax]

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I don't even bother reading opponents unless I see horrific mistakes.

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Maybe you should consider changing this policy. Do you play any hands other than AA-TT/AK/AQ? At the very least use PT and PV or PA-HUD. It should help.

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I don't even bother reading opponents unless I see horrific mistakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should consider changing this policy. Do you play any hands other than AA-TT/AK/AQ? At the very least use PT and PV or PA-HUD. It should help.

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I play many more hands than these. I don't own PT. And when 5-tabling, I don't usually have time to note the fish.

[bozlax]

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I play many more hands than these. I don't own PT. And when 5-tabling, I don't usually have time to note the fish.

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If you're going to multi-table, anything above 2, I'd say, IMO you're losing a lot of value by not knowing anything about the players around you. PT and PV have paid for themselves many times over for me.

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I play many more hands than these. I don't own PT. And when 5-tabling, I don't usually have time to note the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to multi-table, anything above 2, I'd say, IMO you're losing a lot of value by not knowing anything about the players around you. PT and PV have paid for themselves many times over for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to have to rely on a crutch. I think it will retard my poker skill, and relegate me to a low-limit fish-beater. Don't get me wrong now, I do remember opponents and plays. I'm not completely oblivious to what is going on.

[sean c]

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I play many more hands than these. I don't own PT. And when 5-tabling, I don't usually have time to note the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to multi-table, anything above 2, I'd say, IMO you're losing a lot of value by not knowing anything about the players around you. PT and PV have paid for themselves many times over for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to have to rely on a crutch. I think it will retard my poker skill, and relegate me to a low-limit fish-beater. Don't get me wrong now, I do remember opponents and plays. I'm not completely oblivious to what is going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your fooling yourself if you believe this. No one five tables and has good table reads not possible.

[Greg J]

I don't see anything wrong with chucking AQo to an ep (esp utg) raise. AQs I typically 3 bet, which can change depending on the read.

EDIT: there are very rare cases where you should cold call preflop. This is not one of those times.

[Greg J]

I strongly advise you to invest $80 in PT and PA.

[bozlax]

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I don't want to have to rely on a crutch. I think it will retard my poker skill, and relegate me to a low-limit fish-beater.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to point out to you that you've just insulted nearly every poster in this forum, and most of the posters on this board (except for a few shills for the sites that think that PT is cheating).

With that, I'm done.

[ QUOTE ]
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I don't want to have to rely on a crutch. I think it will retard my poker skill, and relegate me to a low-limit fish-beater.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to point out to you that you've just insulted nearly every poster in this forum, and most of the posters on this board (except for a few shills for the sites that think that PT is cheating).

With that, I'm done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this insulting? If anyone is insulted by this it's because they believe it applies to them. Tough.

I don't care if people use PT against me. Fine. But if they don't think it's a crutch then they are fooling themselves.

[numeri]

I believe PT has greatly improved my skill.

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I believe PT has greatly improved my skill.

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How so?

[numeri]

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I believe PT has greatly improved my skill.

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How so?

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During play or analyzing afterward?

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I believe PT has greatly improved my skill.

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How so?

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During play or analyzing afterward?

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I'll give you the hand playback analysis, but I mean, don't you use a tool that shows players' VPIP and all that, while you are playing?

To me that would only hurt your skill, yet help you earn money. Having a borderline decision and looking at his stats (and this is his first hand at the table) and saying "Oh i need to call this fish", just isn't poker to me.

[bozlax]

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But if they don't think it's a crutch then they are fooling themselves.

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And if you think that you're able to optimally play 5 tables at once without it, you're fooling yourself. I play poker to make money...I single- or two-table without PT/PV (or play live) when I want to work on some aspect of my game. When I'm grinding or clearing a bonus, I use PT/PV because it enables me to maximize my earn.

Ever make a play based on a read from a few hands or an orbit before and have it backfire because the original player has been replaced at the table and you didn't notice? That's not a problem for me.

[2+2 Junkie]

What is PV???

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll give you the hand playback analysis, but I mean, don't you use a tool that shows players' VPIP and all that, while you are playing?

To me that would only hurt your skill, yet help you earn money. Having a borderline decision and looking at his stats (and this is his first hand at the table) and saying "Oh i need to call this fish", just isn't poker to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's certainly your right.

When my students ask why they can't use their calculator for a particular test, I tell them that they need to learn how to understand the concepts first. Once they understand the concept, the calculator is a great tool that just gets them there faster.

I see PT and any sort of HUD (heads-up display) as the same sort of thing. I take copious amounts of notes, which I would do regardless. I know how to react to certain types of players preflop. I also know I could certainly figure out the type of player they are after sitting at the table with them for a couple hours and watching how they play. With PT, I just get there faster. I might not see a tight player get to showdown in an hour at the table, but I can easily see how often he plays and how often he raises using PT.

If you don't want to use the tool, that is certainly your perogative. I would recommend not judging others who do.

[numeri]

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What is PV???

[/ QUOTE ]
Playerview. It's a heads-up display (HUD) like Gametime+ or PokerAce. PA is the best, IMO.

They all show each player's stats - of your chosing - over the top of the poker table. Sweet stuff.

[ QUOTE ]

If you don't want to use the tool, that is certainly your perogative. I would recommend not judging others who do.

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When did I ever do this??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

It's funny how you liken it to a calculator, as I've always been more inclined to error when using a calculator.

[numeri]

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If you don't want to use the tool, that is certainly your perogative. I would recommend not judging others who do.

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When did I ever do this??? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Here:
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I think it will retard my poker skill, and relegate me to a low-limit fish-beater.

[/ QUOTE ]

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It's funny how you liken it to a calculator, as I've always been more inclined to error when using a calculator.

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Like any tool, you need to know how to use it correctly. PT and any HUD by themselves are useless unless you know how to use them properly - just like a calculator.

[bozlax]

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PA is the best, IMO.

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I agree with this. I'm pissed that I paid $50 for PT and then about 2 days later heard about PA-HUD, and now PA-HUD wants $25! I've switched back to PT for the past couple of days, and it's just not good enough any more, even though the only real difference is the showing of the hole cards after the hand (before everybody gets all upset, it only does this for cards that appear in the hand history file regardless).

[Stealthy]

In this very hand PT would have helped you. If the raisor has only raised 4% of his hands you fold AQ without a second thought. If he has raised over 10% you re-raise with the same abandon.

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But if they don't think it's a crutch then they are fooling themselves.

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And if you think that you're able to optimally play 5 tables at once without it, you're fooling yourself.

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When did I ever imply that I'm playing optimally? Even with PT, you still are not playing "optimally".

[Greg J]

PA is a bargain at $25.

[imported_The Vibesman]

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But if they don't think it's a crutch then they are fooling themselves.

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And if you think that you're able to optimally play 5 tables at once without it, you're fooling yourself.

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When did I ever imply that I'm playing optimally? Even with PT, you still are not playing "optimally".

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I have been playing for months without pokertracker, and just got it and pokerace this week for multitabling. I will agree with the others, I don't think it's possible to play anything but completely ABC-play-your-own-cards-with-no-regard-for-your-opponents-hand type poker if you are playing five tables without any help. That's just too many tables and you will have a hard time improving your game without the ability to pay close attention to different opponents and how to maximize certain situations.

Like Bozlax, w/o Pokertracker I only play 1-2 tables at once. I find that playing less tables allows you to learn more and play better. Unless you are some sort of savant with a Rainman-like ability to remember 30-40 opponents actions all at once, I would say playing five tables w/o pokertracker is not recommended.

BTW, as someone who has been working for months without it and just got it, it's incredible. I think it can be a crutch (or to use a nicer term, a helper), but its users should also be aware that stats are not end-all be-all, the situations in which a player accumulates his stats have a huge influence on the way you should play a hand against him. Or, in other words, nothing replaces the good old fashioned reads of seeing the way a guy plays certain hands, what he'll go to the river with, what he'll raise and so forth, not just how often. But pokertracker can be a very useful tool as well. It just doesn't replace those reads.

But again, I don't think you can get very good reads playing five tables all by yourself, unless, as I said you are a savant.

But even with PT, you aren't going to play optimally. Nobody plays optimally. Ever.

So I don't play optimally w/o PT, you don't play optimally with it...what's the difference? Over my last 1500 hands over 2 sessions of 5-tabling I'm up 70 BB's.

Small sample size, but not bad for someone who doesn't use PT, and 5-tables. And I'm far from Rainman, but you can remember 45 players somewhat. You just need to focus on remembering their NAME, and not their avatar, because you'll get confused, since the avatars repeat, as well as when that person leaves.

If I see an anomaly, I will look at that players name.