View Full Version : AQo played properly?
NOTE: Opponent is Loose-Aggressive / Passive
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)
MP2 ($6.50)
CO ($22.15)
Button ($9.80)
Hero ($26.30)
BB ($21.55)
UTG ($65.37)
UTG+1 ($25.85)
MP1 ($11.55)
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.10.
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO (poster) raises to $1</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.9</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls $1, Button calls $1.
Flop: ($6.25) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5.95</font>, CO calls $5.95, Button folds.
Turn: ($18.15) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero calls $18.35 (All-In), CO calls $14.20 (All-In).
River: ($50.70) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>
Final Pot: $50.70
How's my line?
RED FACE
10-28-2005, 01:15 AM
I don't play this low but I fold preflop. Given your preflop play and read, flop and turn look perfect to me.
You fold AQ to a raise coming from a steal position and a loose-aggressive player? Interesting. Your opponent has a wide range of hands and clearly AQ is far above the average hand he is likely to make this play with. A fold preflop is far too weak.
yvesaint
10-28-2005, 01:27 AM
pre-flop sucks hard
Weatherhead03
10-28-2005, 01:31 AM
Whats with the PF min raise?
why does my preflop suck hard? I thought he was trying to steal from me, as indicated by his loose-aggressive pre flop playing style. I raised to protect myself from his steal, and i had a very good hand to do it with in the process.
PoBoy321
10-28-2005, 01:32 AM
If you're gonna reraise pre-flop, reraise like a man. Make it at least $3 if you're gonna raise, but personally, I'd just call. After that, flop looks fine, I'd probably check/call the turn and block bet the river.
RED FACE
10-28-2005, 01:33 AM
I don't like my position and button called. Yeah, I didn't really consider the read when assessing preflop but w button calling and bad position I think I'm still folding pre, maybe it's close. That villain is passive post makes a call pre more tempting.
I don't like the preflop re-raise. If the button hadn't called I would probably re-raise a loose-aggressive player here but I would raise 3 times their bet. A raise of twice their bet with acts as a pot sweetner with 2 players already in the pot and doesn't really give you a great idea of where you're at. Simply re-raising out of position with AQ against 2 players is not a great move period. I bet a little less here on the flop. A bet of 2/3 the pot-3/4 the pot will get the job done while offering your opponents improper drawing odds. The push on the turn makes sense I guess but there is more to the story. Even though your opponent is loose preflop you must consider what hands they're willing to go to the river with. All in all, I think I probably push the turn as well but I wouldn't have gotten myself in this mess in the first place with a weak pot sweetener re-raise preflop facing 2 opponents out of position.
NOTE: Opponent is Loose-Aggressive / Passive
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
MP2 ($6.50)
CO ($22.15)
Button ($9.80)
Hero ($26.30)
BB ($21.55)
UTG ($65.37)
UTG+1 ($25.85)
MP1 ($11.55)
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, A. CO posts a blind of $0.10.
4 folds, CO (poster) raises to $1, Button calls $1, Hero raises to $1.9, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Button calls $1.
Flop: ($6.25) 9, 7, Q (3 players)
Hero bets $5.95, CO calls $5.95, Button folds.
Turn: ($18.15) 8 (2 players)
Hero calls $18.35 (All-In), CO calls $14.20 (All-In).
River: ($50.70) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)
Final Pot: $50.70
How's my line?
amoeba
10-28-2005, 01:38 AM
reraise more preflop if you are going to reraise.
at least $3 and probably more
Under no circumstances am I ever folding this preflop. This isn't a player raising early position with you in the blind. This is a loose-aggressive player raising CO. Even a tight-aggressive player's range of hands is very wide here and I am ahead of most of them. Players loosen up up in late position. The button's call means nothing. He simply may have seen a loose-aggressive player raise from late position, looked at his mediocre hand and called with position. In a tournament this would be a great place for a squeeze play making a pot sized or larger re-raise. However, in a cash game this is a trivial easy call.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 01:42 AM
i hate a preflop smoothcall.
TheRegulat0r
10-28-2005, 01:42 AM
As others have said, bump it to like $3.50 pre-flop. I like how fast you played the flop and the turn.
wiggs73
10-28-2005, 01:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
why does my preflop suck hard? I thought he was trying to steal from me, as indicated by his loose-aggressive pre flop playing style. I raised to protect myself from his steal, and i had a very good hand to do it with in the process.
[/ QUOTE ]
Don't feel bad from the negative responses, it's part of the learning process. But the others are right, pre-flop is awful. Here's why.
First of all, don't ever min-raise. And don't ever ever ever min-reraise. A min-reraise serves no effective purpose because you're giving almost any hand the odds to call. You're especially doing this in a multi-way pot. When action comes to you, there is $2.35 in the pot. You then put in another $1.80 to bring the total pot size to $4.15. Now the CO and Button have to put $.90 in to make the call, so they're getting 4.6 : 1 odds and they're correct to call with whatever 2 cards they happen to have. This isn't what you want.
I think a PF call is far superior to a raise, but if you're going to raise, raise to $3 or $4. But I don't like a raise because you have a marginal hand out of position. You're small blind and if you do get callers, you're going to be out of position for the rest of the hand.
Position is a big deal. I'd like a raise if you were the button a lot more because then it puts CO on the defensive and if he calls, you get to see what he does on the flop before you act. With a hand like AQ from the blinds though, just try to keep the pot small and see what develops on the flop.
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As for the actual hand...
Again, I'd try to control the pot size by checking the turn. You have 1 pair on a board that looks good for a LP to raise and call with PF. I wouldn't be surprised to see a straight or a set. Flop is fine, but I think you need to slow down afterwards.
wiggs73
10-28-2005, 01:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
i hate a preflop smoothcall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Care to elaborate? I'd be interested to hear why.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 01:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate a preflop smoothcall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Care to elaborate? I'd be interested to hear why.
[/ QUOTE ]
you are out of position with AQo, a hand that does not play well multiway. you only flop a pair 1/3 of the time the times you flop just the Q, flop might be something like KQX, there are lots of flops you have to check fold.
also if you hit a pair, you won't get any action unless if other guy has you beat or maybe you can hope he has same pair weaker kicker, but this is rare.
you are at an advantage preflop because you are late to act thus the chance of somebody having a hand that dominates you is slim since they would have reraised themselves with AA, KK, AK , QQ. I raise to isolate against preflop raiser with the best hand and to also allow me to better represent overpair if I dont pair on the flop.
RED FACE
10-28-2005, 01:52 AM
Your potential edge over 2 possible mediocre hands doesn't make up for the bad position imo. Anyway, you keep playing.
Excellent response. Everyone on here seems to think that they can just push people out of the pot whenever they want. The reality is that in small stakes HE there are plenty of donkeys that don't respect a raise. I agree that position is a huge deal and your response was dead on. I pretty much said the same things in my posts and the only thing I got people to agree with me on was that if you re-raise preflop you should raise more. They all seem to think this hand is a lock for a re-raise out of position against 2 players at a 50c NL table.
wiggs73
10-28-2005, 01:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i hate a preflop smoothcall.
[/ QUOTE ]
Care to elaborate? I'd be interested to hear why.
[/ QUOTE ]
you are out of position with AQo, a hand that does not play well multiway. you only flop a pair 1/3 of the time the times you flop just the Q, flop might be something like KQX, there are lots of flops you have to check fold.
also if you hit a pair, you won't get any action unless if other guy has you beat or maybe you can hope he has same pair weaker kicker, but this is rare.
you are at an advantage preflop because you are late to act thus the chance of somebody having a hand that dominates you is slim since they would have reraised themselves with AA, KK, AK , QQ. I raise to isolate against preflop raiser with the best hand and to also allow me to better represent overpair if I dont pair on the flop.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an excellent response, though I think it would work much better at higher stakes than Hero is playing.
I definitely understand where you're going with your line, but I just don't think representing hands is a great idea at NL25. Villain could easily have 9T and if the flop is 46T, he isn't going anywhere. At this level, villain will never think about the fact that hero is repping an overpair. Also, for these levels, don't neglect how many times a weaker ace will pay you off when an ace flops.
The original raiser is loose. He is liekly calling your re-raise. Re-raising to isolate usually isn't a great play in this situation when you will be out of position with a non-premium hand. A re-raise makes sense if you expect to win the pot preflop but that certainly isn't the case. You can't guarantee the button doesn't have a hand and the original raiser isn't likely to give you much imformation post-flop. He is passive post-flop and much more likely to slow play a big hand and trap you for all your chips.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 01:59 AM
my main reason for reraising is that if you don't reraise with AQ here, you will be killed by a loose preflop but good postflop player. he will make you laydown best hand (which is often ace high) with continuation bet on the flop and trap you if he flops a monster.
Exactly. I noted the stakes before and noone seems to pay attention to it.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 02:01 AM
thats fine if he is weak tight postflop. the tighter he is postflop, the better the reraise becomes.
I don't mind a call from PFR. he has to flop something to play with me when I reraise and he just doesn't flop something often enough to make his call of my preflop reraise worthwhile.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 02:02 AM
higher stakes don't neccesarily play tighter.
this is a common fallacy.
wiggs73
10-28-2005, 02:07 AM
[ QUOTE ]
thats fine if he is weak tight postflop. the tighter he is postflop, the better the reraise becomes.
I don't mind a call from PFR. he has to flop something to play with me when I reraise and he just doesn't flop something often enough to make his call of my preflop reraise worthwhile.
[/ QUOTE ]
OP said Villain was passive on the flop, or that's how I interpreted it at least. There's definitely room for debate as to the correct PF move... I do like a raise more after having read your posts, but I still prefer a call I think.
One point that Hero can take is that IF he raises, he should raise a lot more. That being said, I'm calling it a night.
RED FACE
10-28-2005, 02:07 AM
lol
amoeba
10-28-2005, 02:09 AM
i'm firing any flop with a pot sized bet left.
is he really going to raise me on the flop with nothing hoping I reraised and bet the flop with nothing?
precisely because I'm out of position, I want to play fewer streets where positional advantage is minimalized.
smooth calling would be much better if you were in position.
tell me whether you reraise KK here and the reasons why you reraise.
I re-raise KK here because:
1)I am very likely to have the best hand preflop and I want more money in the pot.
2)I raise to thin the field. I don't want to play KK in a multi-way pot.
With AQ I can't guarantee that I have the best hand. One of my opponents may very well have a pocket pair. In fact I will say it is highly likely that either the CO or button (most likely the button) has a PP in this situation. I am not re-raising KK to get rid of a positional disadvantage preflop. I don't much care with the 2nd best possible starting hand. An ace only flops about 17% of the time. Granted there are certainly many other bad flops but I am willing to live with that. I am certainly not raising KK to get rid of a posisional disadvantage and win the hand preflop. I am begging for a call. I like a re-raise preflop with AQ against only one player. Against 2 in a cash game I think this is a bad play. As I noted earlier, in a tournament this is a great spot for a re-raise (granted it's not the early levels of blinds). In a tournnament you are under much greater pressure to accumulate chips. This pressure is not present in a cash game. You can play whatever way you like.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 02:29 AM
I'll sum up my argument like this.
when I smoothcall preflop, I win a small pot or lose a big one and the times I win a small pot doesn't happen very often because I have to flop a pair.
when I reraise preflop, I win a medium sized pot very very often. When I reraise, I force villain to flop a hand that beats overpair, when I smoothcall, I have to check fold most flops. In addition, it increases my preflop reraise frequency which forces villain to either cut down on his preflop raises or possibly make a mistake and 3 bet push with a mediocre hand later on and get stacked by my monsters.
By cold calling preflop I don't see how you intend on losing a big pot. There is less money in the pot so the subsequent bets will be smaller as most people base their bets on the pot size. Someone with an overpair isn't going to bet $20 into a $20 pot and then make the same $20 bet into an $8 pot. I think by re-raising preflop you are actually more likely to lose a bigger pot than by cold-calling.
amoeba
10-28-2005, 02:35 AM
so you are good enough to get away from TPTK despite villain's loose preflop standards?
lol. I'm holding onto my TPTK and I'm holding onto it for a lower cost. Are you saying you're getting away from it after you re-raise preflop and have even more $ in the pot? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm OUT OF POSITION! OUT OF POSTION! OUT OF POSITION!
amoeba
10-28-2005, 02:53 AM
no. I get broke with it if I reraise preflop. but I win so often when he doesn't flop something that beats single pair to make up for the times that I run up against his set or 2 pair.
you should really remove the lols. it doesn't make your case any stronger and its rather insulting. I already addressed the position issue and why you want to play fewer streets when you are out of position thus you want to force a decision earlier.
you seemed to want to play multiple streets 3 way with TPTK type hand which you flop only 1/3 of the time.
I can't convince you and I think I've given enough arguments for to make this discussion worthwhile in this thread so this is the last post from me.
"no. I get broke with it if I reraise preflop. but I win so often when he doesn't flop something that beats single pair to make up for the times that I run up against his set or 2 pair."
Interesting. I strongly disagree. You would have to win LOTS of small pots to make up for going broke. You are against a loose player here. There's no guarantee that he doesn't continue with mediocre/weak holdings after the flop. Well anyways it's been fun. Sorry if I insulted you with the LOLs but I couldn't help myself. I'm just having a little fun with you. I disagree with your opinion and clearly am not changing and you disagree with my opinion and clearly are not changing. No need to get upset. I tend to sound disrespectful at times but it is all in fun and I mean no harm. My best advice is get used to it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
FreakDaddy
10-28-2005, 03:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
reraise more preflop if you are going to reraise.
at least $3 and probably more
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, at least $4 imo. That way you're also taking charge of the hand and you have more credibility if you miss and want to lead out since you're OOP.
yvesaint
10-28-2005, 04:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
why does my preflop suck hard? I thought he was trying to steal from me, as indicated by his loose-aggressive pre flop playing style. I raised to protect myself from his steal, and i had a very good hand to do it with in the process.
[/ QUOTE ]
yea, and raising it the minimum really protects you from a "steal" now does it
hit him hard, make it 4
In a ring game like this I don't like re-raising with AQo from the SB. I don't even like calling. You just end up with a large pot, out of position, with no hint as to how much the field likes their hands before you have to act. Moreover, if the original raiser has you dominated with AK, he'll probably just call your reraise, and end up with most of your stack on an A-high flop.
I'd fold preflop.
Once you re-raise preflop and then flop a Queen (much better for you than an Ace), I think you played the rest of the hand super-aggressively to protect your hand against flush and straight draws. If you think Ad Jd, Ad Kd, Ad Td, etc for villain are likely, or even a stronger draw like Jd Td (in which case villain should have pushed over your continuation bet on the flop), then your line is good. I just think I'd rather not even be in this spot because I'd have given up the $0.1 SB and folded.
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