Believers in God want to have it both ways

Believers in God tell us "skeptics" that God is beyond the known universe and all matter, which is why we cannot test for "him" (white bearded fellow in the sky). Yet these same people claim to know and understand this same God's rules for us humans. How can you truly believe that you understand a being which is greater than the sum of everything that exists?

I am not an atheist but I am a skeptic. My feeling is that if god exists it is so far beyond the comprehension of our idiotic wants and dreams that it would be like a mosquito trying to figure out the mind of Einstein.

But religious folk want not only to believe in god, but they want this same god to be like GW Bush sitting down for a beer with them after work.

Seriously, dont be so afraid to live with uncertainty, god or no.

-g

[Darryl_P]

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Yet these same people claim to know and understand this same God's rules for us humans. How can you truly believe that you understand a being which is greater than the sum of everything that exists?

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Good point, and I think the majority of religious folks do make a big mistake here. I personally don't assume too much about God except that He has SOME purpose for our existence which we will probably never know, and that He has ways of giving us direction when and if we submit to Him and ask for it.

Apart from that I'm quite comfortable living with a lot of uncertainty and I don't believe too many literal interpretations of stories in the Bible.

My theory is that there is a small percentage of people who can sense God by communicating with Him directly (I consider myself in this camp), and a much greater percentage who need help from an intermediary like a priest.

An outside observer may see the priest and all his shortcomings and assume that because this man has shortcomings, everything he says must be a crock, while others overlook those and sense a much more important message coming from God. It is up to each individual which picture he wants to see, and whichever he chooses, he will be right IMO.

[BluffTHIS!]

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Yet these same people claim to know and understand this same God's rules for us humans. How can you truly believe that you understand a being which is greater than the sum of everything that exists?

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Your arguement:

Premise: Religious people claim to understand God's rules for humans.

Conclusion: Therefore they claim to fully understand the supreme being.


Where is your middle term in this syllogism?

[txag007]

Bluffthis has a good point.

Christians aren't claiming to know everything about God. There is more we don't know than what we do. However, what we do know is what He has chosen to reveal to us.

"Premise: Religious people claim to understand God's rules for humans.
\Conclusion: Therefore they claim to fully understand the supreme being."

What I am getting at is that I think religious people want to have their cake and eat it too. The notion that something which is greater, more complex and infinitely beyond the scope of this universe would most likely be infinitely harder to understand. That means in every way.
Again, many of us would have a hard time sitting down and "getting" what Sklansky was talking about most of the time. it is pure hubris to believe you know the mind of god in anyway. That should be blasphemy.

-g

[NotReady]

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it is pure hubris to believe you know the mind of god in anyway.


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That's why God gave us His Word and why He speaks to us in baby talk.

I still think you are grasping at straws. If He had revealed Himself to you on this plane at a physical level than He should be able to be tested for and proven to exist. If He is beyond the physical world and greater than the universe itself, than you cannot possibly claim to understand His plans, wants, rules or anything else. And the books and stories you have are akin to a 5 year old being told that the moon is up in the sky, and that is the sun, and those bright things are stars. That doesnt even begin to explain Astronomy. You believers are like 3rd graders trying to understand the movement of planets and failing miserably. Just my opinion.

g

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Believers in God tell us "skeptics" that God is beyond the known universe and all matter, which is why we cannot test for "him" (white bearded fellow in the sky). Yet these same people claim to know and understand this same God's rules for us humans. How can you truly believe that you understand a being which is greater than the sum of everything that exists?

I am not an atheist but I am a skeptic. My feeling is that if god exists it is so far beyond the comprehension of our idiotic wants and dreams that it would be like a mosquito trying to figure out the mind of Einstein.

But religious folk want not only to believe in god, but they want this same god to be like GW Bush sitting down for a beer with them after work.

Seriously, dont be so afraid to live with uncertainty, god or no.

-g

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Because all believers in God think the same, act the same, and believe the same?

I understand you probably mean "the believers that make me mad," but I hate how some people group all religious people into the same stereotype.

In discussions of this type, generalizations are made, it's just the nature of the beast. Do all Christians, Muslims, Hindus think alike? Course not. However, many of them share basic traits in terms of thought process (or lack thereof). You may be an exception.
From what i've seen on this board, most of the posters fall into the small percentage of "believers" who actually have tried to rationally think out their perspectives. Just because people like this exist does not change the fact that the world is filled with many, many more "believers" whose perspectives are not thought out, rational, well-conceived, sensible or intelligent. Those millions of people are whom I am mostly talking about.
And still, some of the people who post to this forum seem to harbor many of the same illogical and self-serving presumptions as the majority of religious folk. So I feel my "stereotypical" generalities are in fact well-founded.

[BluffTHIS!]

You are still drawing an illogical conclusion from our belief that we know the "rules" God wants us to live by. Understanding those rules does not in anyway imply understanding fully God's infinite nature beyond what He has revealed of it to us.

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You are still drawing an illogical conclusion from our belief that we know the "rules" God wants us to live by. Understanding those rules does not in anyway imply understanding fully God's infinite nature beyond what He has revealed of it to us.

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Of course, since he is infinite, he has infinite reasons for giving you those rules (assuming he did). Now, many people are still trying to decipher why Elvis did what he did, or writing books about the enigma that is Marilyn Manson. You really think that by following 8 simple rules or whatever, you can conform to an infinite god's wishes?

Maybe he handed down those rules for a good belly laugh. There are infinite reasons for his infinite mind to do what he does (and here I am just accepting that the HE in question exists at all...)

[BluffTHIS!]

You still are either not, or simply don't wish to, grasping the point that you don't have to fully understand an infinite God to conform to the manner of life He wishes us to live. You only need to understand that He loves us and wishes us to be with Him eternally, although we can choose otherwise.

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You still are either not, or simply don't wish to, grasping the point that you don't have to fully understand an infinite God to conform to the manner of life He wishes us to live. You only need to understand that He loves us and wishes us to be with Him eternally, although we can choose otherwise.

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Let me try the Socratic method with you...How do you know he loves us and wishes us to be with him eternally?
By the way, any answer you give here aside from "I don't" assumes that you actually KNOW the inner workings of an infinite mind.

g

[BluffTHIS!]

To know in part because He has revealed that part to us, is not the same at all as saying to know in full. That is the distinction you either don't or refuse to see.

And your problem is you think you know WHY he revealed that part to you. That assumption makes no sense if a being is infinite. Someone of your (or my) intelligence has NO idea why god does what he does. By the way, I am conceding so much to just make this point that it almost loses all meaning. I am conceding that there is a god and that he actually did reveal part of something to you...none of which i am convinced of. However, even with that said, HE is infinite and could have billions of disparate reasons for revealing something.
YOU are the one who claims to know what that means-not I.
I guess my humbleness before the Lord just exceeds yours...
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g