$11 - Jacks on a nasty board

[pergesu]

Thoughts on all streets



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) wacki's version of bison (http://parazen.bio.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/tc.cgi)

MP2 (t1575)
CO (t650)
Button (t700)
SB (t640)
BB (t750)
UTG (t2250)
UTG+1 (t695)
Hero (t740)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J /images/graemlins/spade.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t30, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t120) 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>

SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t80</font>, MP2 folds, SB calls t80, BB folds.

Turn: (t280) K /images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t30</font>, Hero calls t30.

River: (t340) 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t30</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t175</font>

I'd open raise to 100after that flop I'd then bet another 100(1/2 to 3/4 of the pot), . If he bets into me I'd probably push. If he takes a shady line, like check/raising me or calling then leading the turn....I may reevalutate getting all my chips in.

After your flop bet and his weak lead, I'd probably just call down. No need to raise on such a scary board. $11ers can't laydown a 2h, a 5, and some can't laydown a K.

[stanzee]

This is the problem with not raising jacks preflop. You could have been much more comfortable on the flop if you'd raised preflop.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the problem with not raising jacks preflop. You could have been much more comfortable on the flop if you'd raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Isn't that slightly results oriented?

My preflop play, especially in the early levels, is pretty well-defined at this point...

But I would be honored if the special one could comment on the rest of the hand (preflop comments noted).

[jeffraider]

Here it is, all streets:

Preflop: I've been raising JJ like I would AA-QQ recently, and it's been working out fine. As long as you're decent postflop, you should be okay raising, but I'll say this, limping is okay as well.

Flop: Two checks to you, you bet 3/4 of the pot, nice job, I play the same here.

Turn: I like the call. Your hand isn't a monster, and if he's giving you a very discounted river, I say take it.

River: Are you trying to fold out a king here? Too fancy man, this is an $11. If he does have a heart he isn't folding and he could easily call you with a king as well. For me, this river is just like the turn, he's giving you a very good price to see a showdown, why not take it?

[ChrisV]

I agree with the limp preflop. I actually think raising JJ in early position is pretty bad - I don't think it's close.

The bet on the flop is a bit on the small side. I'd bet the pot.

On the turn you should raise to about 200, 250. SB's weak lead there probably has the object of seeing a cheap river. Don't oblige him. If he calls, check behind on the river unless it's a jack.

On the river, just call. A raise has a good chance of moving SB off a king (although some players still call). The problem is that SB probably doesn't have a king. You're losing to hearts and fives, both of which most likely call, and you're beating everything else, so there's no point in raising.

How'd I do?

[mlagoo]

i mean

i agree with the limp preflop

i like the flop raise

i like the turn call (at this point, he could easily have hearts, lets have a cheap showdown if hes willing to give it to you)

the river -- i mean, you got the cheap showdown. its an 11. is he really folding a 9 high flush here? is he really folding a 5 here? I would bet the answer is "no" to both of these. so i'd just call.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
(at this point, he could easily have hearts, lets have a cheap showdown if hes willing to give it to you)

[/ QUOTE ]

If he has hearts, why is he min betting out? Is that usually a line you take when you hit flushes?

He wants to suggest he has hearts, because he's the one hoping for a cheap showdown. A typical hand here would be something like 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif where calling is a disaster.

[golfcchs]

I just call the river and mabey raise pre flop with both UTG's folding.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]

If he has hearts, why is he min betting out?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no competent player is ever firing 30 chips into a 280 chip pot, so you basically know you're dealing with a weak player, which means he could very well have made the nut flush on the turn, or ANYTHING. I don't think you can try to figure this guy out, just take the cheap cards he's giving you and see what the hell he was doing at your nice and cheap showdown.

[EasilyFound]

Big raise on the turn.

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, no competent player is ever firing 30 chips into a 280 chip pot, so you basically know you're dealing with a weak player, which means he could very well have made the nut flush on the turn, or ANYTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your argument is that it's impossible to figure out what any play means if it's not made by a competent player?

Competent players very rarely open limp from the SB on the bubble, but that doesn't mean I can't put my opponents on a range of hands when he does that. Competent players don't make giant overraises in levels 1 and 2 but that doesn't stop me deducing what kind of hand they have.

I see this min bet out all the time and it very rarely means anything other than a hand that doesn't want to shell out a lot of chips to see the river. This is one of the reasons competent players don't use it. If I knew you were all going to just call it all the time, I'd employ it on weak and drawing hands constantly.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, no competent player is ever firing 30 chips into a 280 chip pot, so you basically know you're dealing with a weak player, which means he could very well have made the nut flush on the turn, or ANYTHING.

[/ QUOTE ]

So your argument is that it's impossible to figure out what any play means if it's not made by a competent player?


[/ QUOTE ]

No no, I just think that you shouldn't read too much into this bet at all. Sure he could be trying to buy a cheap showdown, but he could easily have the nut flush and be trying to induce a bluff, or just the naked A /images/graemlins/heart.gif or K /images/graemlins/heart.gif, etc. Basically if I knew I was playing Pergesu and he fired 30 chips into a 280 pot, I'd probably be raising him confidently, but if it was the average $11er I'd be happy taking my cheap showdown, knowing that he's got a big hand way more often than Perg would.

[mlagoo]

[ QUOTE ]
i mean

i agree with the limp preflop

i like the flop raise

i like the turn call (at this point, he could easily have hearts, lets have a cheap showdown if hes willing to give it to you)

the river -- i mean, you got the cheap showdown. its an 11. is he really folding a 9 high flush here? is he really folding a 5 here? I would bet the answer is "no" to both of these. so i'd just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

i just wanted to point out that i used the term raise when i meant bet. so im being a nit to my own post. which makes me just the worst nit of all.

[mlagoo]

i guess i mostly agree with jeffraider here. there is really no way to confidently put this guy on a hand right now. we know there is a good chance he is a donk (party 11).

so, he calls a 2/3 pot bet on the flop. Could be a flush draw, could be a 6, could be a 5, could be 44, could just be KJ looking to hit his overcard. we just have no idea.

when he minbets out, it sure seems like he likes his hand more than he did on the flop. but then again, maybe its just a donk blocking bet. who knows? I have no idea on a hand range here.

On the river, I mean, so many hands ARE NOT folding the river here. I think very few hands that are beating us are folding. I DOUBT a K folds here, I doubt a 5 folds here, and I doubt a 9 or T high flush folds here.


I think if you never bluffed the river in the first two levels of an 11/22, you would not be leaving all that many chips on the table.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]

I think if you never bluffed the river in the first two levels of an 11/22, you would be playing great.

[/ QUOTE ]

fixt lol

[ChrisV]

[ QUOTE ]
i guess i mostly agree with jeffraider here. there is really no way to confidently put this guy on a hand right now. we know there is a good chance he is a donk (party 11).

so, he calls a 2/3 pot bet on the flop. Could be a flush draw, could be a 6, could be a 5, could be 44, could just be KJ looking to hit his overcard. we just have no idea.

when he minbets out, it sure seems like he likes his hand more than he did on the flop. but then again, maybe its just a donk blocking bet. who knows? I have no idea on a hand range here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It comes down to this: who do you think is getting helped by a cheap card here more often? You or him? Bear in mind that if you're losing, you have only two outs in the deck. By raising, you're not really risking many more chips than by calling, since if he's winning he's often going to bet some medium amount on the river (say 90 chips) which you'll have to call.

There's the additional problem that you've showed abject weakness. You deserve to have the donk bet you out of the pot on the river with his 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif when he misses.

[mlagoo]

chris, i appreciate your points.

on the other hand though, i think that turn card basically turned the situation into a "way behind/slightly ahead" situation, and at that point, i'm not interested in charging villian for what MAY be a draw, but what may well be a made hand -- i dont have enough information to know for sure. all i'm interested in at this point is showing down my hand cheaply.

the river heart obviously screwed up my showdown equity, but at that point, i can't fold for another 30 chips, so I'm calling. in a higher buyin game, i'm raising here a lot. just not in an 11 =P.

[Scuba Chuck]

Minimally, c-bet that flop. Preferably more. Did you know that the $11s are donkeys? Let them know you have a hand. They respond to strength. You bet would be better if you hit a set.

[MegaBet]

You seem to have played this hand backwards. You call when you should raise and raise when you should call.

[pineapple888]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the limp preflop. I actually think raising JJ in early position is pretty bad - I don't think it's close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you are 100% wrong when you say "it's not close". It *is* close. That's why it keeps coming up.

You might prefer to limp. There are good arguments for limping.

But at the 11s, I'd rather raise as a way to limit the field. If a bunch of people come along, oh well, at least I've built a nice pot with the fourth-best starting hand.

And he's in MP1 anyway, not EP.

As for the rest of the hand...

Take a shot on the flop. Fine with me.

After you are called and that awful turn card comes, I'm just showing it down cheaply if possible. Villain seems agreeable. The range of hands he could have here is enormous, and I'm not interested in putting significantly more money in.

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]


Well, you are 100% wrong when you say "it's not close". It *is* close. That's why it keeps coming up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I [censored] hate people who say "it's not close", unless it's like "I HAVE FOUR ACES DO I CALL?!".