KK - Hand 1

[Scuba Chuck]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[beaster]

To be honest I raise on the turn. Too many times I've seen players bet into a board pair representing trips and they wind up showing two pair, or in some cases, its a stone cold bluff. Your opponent might drop it then and there, to boot. If not, he will likely call and check to you on the river.

I raise the turn. The second Q is a good card for us- -makes it less likely he has one himself. The tougher decision for me would be what to do if he 3bets. It'd be good to have a read for that, but not many micro players will 3 bet that turn without a set/trips of some sort. I think I could fold.

If he doesnt have the Q, why are we raising the turn and not waiting for the river?

If we raise here he folds a worse hand, and its pretty unlikely he could improve that hand to beat us.

We also get an extra card to improve.

[ QUOTE ]
in some cases, its a stone cold bluff. Your opponent might drop it then and there, to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

if its a stone cold bluff, why do we want him to drop it?

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
If he doesnt have the Q, why are we raising the turn and not waiting for the river?

If we raise here he folds a worse hand, and its pretty unlikely he could improve that hand to beat us.

We also get an extra card to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, interesting thoughts.

I like it. If he has a Q (or anything else that beats us) we loose the least and if he doesn't we're allowing him to continue to bluff at the pot.

[Weatherhead03]

By raising the turn you can do so many things.

1)You can raise the turn and if he calls then you can checkbehind on the river if you are scared of the Q.
2)You can raise and get 3 bet and fold the river UI (although im still tempted to call the river but I still think you can safely say you are beat)
3)You can raise the turn and bet the river and win an extra BB as you are ahead a fair amount of the time here.

[PokerSparky]

[ QUOTE ]
2)You can raise and get 3 bet and fold the river UI (although im still tempted to call the river but I still think you can safely say you are beat)


[/ QUOTE ]

Any line that includes folding is not good IMO.

I like calling down after turn donk.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
By raising the turn you can do so many things.

1)You can raise the turn and if he calls then you can checkbehind on the river if you are scared of the Q.
2)You can raise and get 3 bet and fold the river UI (although im still tempted to call the river but I still think you can safely say you are beat)
3)You can raise the turn and bet the river and win an extra BB as you are ahead a fair amount of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how 2 is a good thing. I also don't understand #1 as I think you should be value-betting this river every time after raising turn.

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
If he doesnt have the Q, why are we raising the turn and not waiting for the river?

If we raise here he folds a worse hand, and its pretty unlikely he could improve that hand to beat us.

We also get an extra card to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that I agree with raising (still undecided at this point), but there are valid points for it. If he's betting a Pair+FD we're getting a bet out of him now that we wouldn't on river. Also, if we raise here he will usually call down with any pair 8 or 9, gaining us bets.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By raising the turn you can do so many things.

1)You can raise the turn and if he calls then you can checkbehind on the river if you are scared of the Q.
2)You can raise and get 3 bet and fold the river UI (although im still tempted to call the river but I still think you can safely say you are beat)
3)You can raise the turn and bet the river and win an extra BB as you are ahead a fair amount of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how 2 is a good thing. I also don't understand #1 as I think you should be value-betting this river every time after raising turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah #1 is no good, gets you the same number of bets as calling down, but lets us get bluffed out if we follow #2.

I only raise the turn if I can comfortably fold to a 3 bet, and at .5/1 against an unknown I'm just not gonna do that, so I just call down. Maybe we miss a bet here and there, but IMO that is made up by the fact that we're not going to fold the best hand, and he might bet the river with a hand that would fold to a turn raise.

[2+2 wannabe]

this is painstakingly standard for reasons Eskimo gave - the only question is whether we have value in a river raise

against an unknown this is perfect

[LoaferGee12]

[ QUOTE ]
I only raise the turn if I can comfortably fold to a 3 bet, and at .5/1 against an unknown I'm just not gonna do that, so I just call down. Maybe we miss a bet here and there, but IMO that is made up by the fact that we're not going to fold the best hand, and he might bet the river with a hand that would fold to a turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, not to mention the few amount of times we boat up and cash in. I think I've decided I like just calling this down.

[Shillx]

Perfect.

Drunk Brad

[Nfinity]

[ QUOTE ]
this is painstakingly standard for reasons Eskimo gave - the only question is whether we have value in a river raise

against an unknown this is perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I missed something this is not quite the standard amongst the masses here, Although it should be.

Awesome hand, good work.

[ QUOTE ]
By raising the turn you can do so many things.

1)You can raise the turn and if he calls then you can checkbehind on the river if you are scared of the Q.
2)You can raise and get 3 bet and fold the river UI (although im still tempted to call the river but I still think you can safely say you are beat)
3)You can raise the turn and bet the river and win an extra BB as you are ahead a fair amount of the time here.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) its a way to lose less if your afraid?
raise then check through = 2BB
call then call = 2BB

2) What does fold mean again?
You dont have the odds to draw to your likely ~2 outs for the river, and if he is 3betting the turn he IS betting the river. so... this makes very little sense unless its some metagame thing im just not seeing.

3) raise the turn, get called then bet and get called on the river: 3BB
call the turn, then raise the river and get called: 3BB
the difference here is your getting another card to improve.

[beaster]

[ QUOTE ]

1) its a way to lose less if your afraid?
raise then check through = 2BB
call then call = 2BB

2) What does fold mean again?
You dont have the odds to draw to your likely ~2 outs for the river, and if he is 3betting the turn he IS betting the river. so... this makes very little sense unless its some metagame thing im just not seeing.

3) raise the turn, get called then bet and get called on the river: 3BB
call the turn, then raise the river and get called: 3BB
the difference here is your getting another card to improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I understand why the advice I gave is wrong. Good stuff, thanks.

[lautzutao]

Unless UTG is a tricky player in some way I'd fold the turn.