AK = Annoying Kards [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

JustPlayingSmart

10-27-2005, 09:01 PM

Stars 5.50R, beginning of 3rd hour. Blinds 300/600/50

I have 20k and AK in SB. MP (40k) goes to 2400 preflop and CO (44k) calls.

I always push here and I'm running into KK a lot. I hate flat calling here, and I really don't see how I can reraise and fold to a push, so I continue to push. Have I just been getting slightly unlucky lately in that I'm running into hands that crush more often than I should or is there another way I should approach this hand?

pineapple888

10-27-2005, 09:19 PM

It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

CardSharpCook

10-27-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" /images/graemlins/confused.gif I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

10-27-2005, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" /images/graemlins/confused.gif I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

If you want less risk, why don't you just call? Pushing over 30xBB will probably only get called by AA, KK, QQ maybe.

pineapple888

10-27-2005, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" /images/graemlins/confused.gif I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with you?

Why do you think OP keeps running into Kings? Random bad luck?

You're in the third hour of a tournament. Many of the donks (like yourself) have been weeded out. Good players aren't calling behind with 22 for set value any more. The blinds and antes are too high.

It takes a stronger hand to call than to raise.

Go away, learn something about poker, then start posting again. Or not, I hope.

0evg0

10-27-2005, 09:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" /images/graemlins/confused.gif I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with you?

Why do you think OP keeps running into Kings? Random bad luck?

You're in the third hour of a tournament. Many of the donks (like yourself) have been weeded out. Good players aren't calling behind with 22 for set value any more. The blinds and antes are too high.

It takes a stronger hand to call than to raise.

Go away, learn something about poker, then start posting again. Or not, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Pineapple, I leave you with some excellent advice I recently came across: "Go away, learn something about poker, then start posting again."

jwvdcw

10-27-2005, 10:04 PM

push or call...either is a fine option. Base your decision on whether or not you think you can outplay them postflop, and more specifically whether or not you think you can bluff them if you miss.

With that said, I'd almost always push preflop here.

ansky451

10-27-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" /images/graemlins/confused.gif I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

[/ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with you?

Why do you think OP keeps running into Kings? Random bad luck?

You're in the third hour of a tournament. Many of the donks (like yourself) have been weeded out. Good players aren't calling behind with 22 for set value any more. The blinds and antes are too high.

It takes a stronger hand to call than to raise.

Go away, learn something about poker, then start posting again. Or not, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are horrible. You are the one who needs to learn some poker before you post some horrible advice, and then attack one of the most respected posters on this board.

Let the flaming begin...

woodguy

10-27-2005, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

Quote:
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

What is wrong with you?

Why do you think OP keeps running into Kings? Random bad luck?

You're in the third hour of a tournament. Many of the donks (like yourself) have been weeded out. Good players aren't calling behind with 22 for set value any more. The blinds and antes are too high.

It takes a stronger hand to call than to raise.

Go away, learn something about poker, then start posting again. Or not, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.

Unwarranted antagonism, a personal attack and bad advice.

A trifecta.

Regards,
Woodguy

TomHimself

10-27-2005, 10:29 PM

this thread makes me laugh, time to dig up some of pineapples old posts and see what other gems there are

Superfluous Man

10-27-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]

What is wrong with you?

Why do you think OP keeps running into Kings? Random bad luck?

You're in the third hour of a tournament. Many of the donks (like yourself) have been weeded out. Good players aren't calling behind with 22 for set value any more. The blinds and antes are too high.

It takes a stronger hand to call than to raise.

Go away, learn something about poker, then start posting again. Or not, I hope.

[/ QUOTE ]
When CSC, who I always used to think played too tight (or at least advocated play I felt was too risk-averse), is saying this raise with AK is standard...then, well, you had best believe a raise is the best play.

EverettKings

10-27-2005, 10:43 PM

Um, back to the hand....

You can't fold AK here. You're ahead too often and can outflop a lot of TTish hands that you could be up against. Reraising here less than all in is bad since you have to call a push or are left to play a flop out of position that you miss 2/3 of the time with half your stack in the pot. So push and call are your options.

You have too many chips to push. The pot is 5500, you have 20k. Such a big overbet will fold out EVERY hand that you want action from. You will get calls from at worst TT/JJ (maybe 99) and will never fold out QQ+. You put your whole stack at risk for 5k. I almost prefer to squeeze-bluff here than push my AK (since it kills a lot of AK's value).

So I just call, and calmly exit the hand if I airball the flop. If I hit, I can play some poker and continue with a much stronger hand. This way you don't put your whole stack at risk for a nonvital increase in stack size, you can get away almost unscathed when you miss, or take down a nice pot if your hand improves.

If you had 10k here it would be an instapush.

Everett

Dave D

10-27-2005, 10:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's fine to fold here, depending on your reads. The flat call worries me, and even with loose players, three-handed isn't all that great a situation for AK anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

HUH????

"It's fine to fold here." Um, no, it isn't a standard raise and a call doesn't mean it is time to toss AK.

"The flat call worries me." Why in the world would a call worry you? If he had raised, ok, you can make a case for worry. But he likes his hand enough to call instead of fold and now you are worried?

"three handed isn't all that great for AK anyway" /images/graemlins/confused.gif I just don't know what to say...

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

[/ QUOTE ]

I concur.

This isn't like a tournament of champions, it's a 5.5r. I flat call here and see what the flop brings. I don't really see a need to push.

CardSharpCook

10-27-2005, 11:42 PM

as for the hand, we have 6700 in the pot, 20K in our stack, and it is 2100 to call. Personally, I look at this and see a pretty big pot, a hand I'm willing to die with, and the prospect of playing a good hand OOP when the pot will be hard to walk away from. I shove it in now. The OOP is my biggest concern.

10-28-2005, 12:07 AM

www.mattmatros.com (http://www.mattmatros.com)

check out his cardplayer article "A Mathematical look at AK in No-Limit Hold Em'"

Continue to poooooooosh

Run Goot

10-28-2005, 01:37 AM

Cactus Jack

10-28-2005, 06:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
as for the hand, we have 6700 in the pot, 20K in our stack, and it is 2100 to call. Personally, I look at this and see a pretty big pot, a hand I'm willing to die with, and the prospect of playing a good hand OOP when the pot will be hard to walk away from. I shove it in now. The OOP is my biggest concern.

[/ QUOTE ]

My biggest concern is the flat call after a 4X BB raise. Somebody has a big hand here, and AK ain't one of them, I'm afraid. Combine that with being OOP, and the very good possibility that if I raise, I'll be put all in with hind tit, I'm taking my chances on the flop. Plus, the BB hasn't been heard from. This could be very, very bad, when all things are considered. I rarely disagree with my betters, but this time I feel I must.

I call and pray for QJT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

CJ

PrtyPsux

10-28-2005, 06:30 AM

I like to push. It works as a squeeze play, and if you get called you are usually in a coinflip situation. push and hope for the folds.

Melchiades

10-28-2005, 07:01 AM

AK ain't one of them? You never just call a raise with AK when you have position? Why do always people assume villains flat calling have monsters? The caller knows he has position and a 70+ BB stack, he can make this call with a lot of hands. Hoping to take the pot away with position. Flat calling usually means just that, a calling hand. Not a reraising hand.

10-28-2005, 07:28 AM

[quote

My biggest concern is the flat call after a 4X BB raise. Somebody has a big hand here, and AK ain't one of them, I'm afraid.

[/ QUOTE ]

that doesn't concern me in a $5 rebuy event. A lot of the players won't have a clue. Unless I've seen this player flat calling raises with big pocket pairs I push this everytime.

10-28-2005, 07:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this thread makes me laugh, time to dig up some of pineapples old posts and see what other gems there are

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer looking at your posts as you never post any strategy and just stop in threads for useless 1-liners.

Cactus Jack

10-28-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AK ain't one of them? You never just call a raise with AK when you have position?

[/ QUOTE ]

What position? From the SB. I play tables where the SB is the first to play after the flop. Don't know about yours. Must be a home game.

I gave my logic. If you find fault with it, that's fine. I have no problem with that. I'm happy to see a flop in this situation, given the reasons I stated. If the caller is calling just because he has position and 70BB, then I'd prefer to stick around a little longer. He's got a lot of chips that I can get in a better spot. A 4X BB usually means something in these. I've played a few of them, enough to have seen it. I've also been hooked by AA flat calling a big raise, and I've said goodnight with AK vs. 44.

I really think I'm fine with playing it this way. But then, I feel better about my post-flop play than many do here, so that certainly may make a difference.

I hope you will allow different ways to play here. Sometimes with responses like this, one wonders.

Oh, since you didn't ask but implied that I'm "people" in the tone of voice that implies fish, I'm NOT assuming there is a monster lurking, but you must admit it's certainly within the range of hands. Or are you just pushing because that's your complete strategy? (That's a question, not a statement.)

CJ

jwvdcw

10-28-2005, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
AK ain't one of them? You never just call a raise with AK when you have position? Why do always people assume villains flat calling have monsters? The caller knows he has position and a 70+ BB stack, he can make this call with a lot of hands. Hoping to take the pot away with position. Flat calling usually means just that, a calling hand. Not a reraising hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreeed...he could easily have a hand like 10-Js....this late in a tourney, I don't want to see a flop with a vulnerable hand. I push, although I can certainly understand calling.

10-28-2005, 01:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Um, back to the hand....

You can't fold AK here. You're ahead too often and can outflop a lot of TTish hands that you could be up against. Reraising here less than all in is bad since you have to call a push or are left to play a flop out of position that you miss 2/3 of the time with half your stack in the pot. So push and call are your options.

You have too many chips to push. The pot is 5500, you have 20k. Such a big overbet will fold out EVERY hand that you want action from. You will get calls from at worst TT/JJ (maybe 99) and will never fold out QQ+. You put your whole stack at risk for 5k. I almost prefer to squeeze-bluff here than push my AK (since it kills a lot of AK's value).

So I just call, and calmly exit the hand if I airball the flop. If I hit, I can play some poker and continue with a much stronger hand. This way you don't put your whole stack at risk for a nonvital increase in stack size, you can get away almost unscathed when you miss, or take down a nice pot if your hand improves.

If you had 10k here it would be an instapush.

Everett

[/ QUOTE ]

I would play it exactly like this!

If I hit, I would probably, CR all-in.

pineapple888

10-28-2005, 01:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AK ain't one of them? You never just call a raise with AK when you have position?

[/ QUOTE ]

What position? From the SB. I play tables where the SB is the first to play after the flop. Don't know about yours. Must be a home game.

I gave my logic. If you find fault with it, that's fine. I have no problem with that. I'm happy to see a flop in this situation, given the reasons I stated. If the caller is calling just because he has position and 70BB, then I'd prefer to stick around a little longer. He's got a lot of chips that I can get in a better spot. A 4X BB usually means something in these. I've played a few of them, enough to have seen it. I've also been hooked by AA flat calling a big raise, and I've said goodnight with AK vs. 44.

I really think I'm fine with playing it this way. But then, I feel better about my post-flop play than many do here, so that certainly may make a difference.

I hope you will allow different ways to play here. Sometimes with responses like this, one wonders.

Oh, since you didn't ask but implied that I'm "people" in the tone of voice that implies fish, I'm NOT assuming there is a monster lurking, but you must admit it's certainly within the range of hands. Or are you just pushing because that's your complete strategy? (That's a question, not a statement.)

CJ

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow-- somebody who's actually thinking about the issues involved, instead of seeing AK and splooging all over their keyboard.

Thank you, Cactus Jack.

If any if you other donks bothered to read my first post, I said that *based on reads* it is *reasonable* to fold.

I didn't say I'd fold every time. I might very well push and/or call 80% of the time, if this was a typical $5.

But it is *not automatic*, with a hand that is a 43/57 dog to TT-QQ, and a huge dog to KK-AA.

So get a clue, donkeys. Meanwhile, I have to go count the money I've won from y'all.

woodguy

10-28-2005, 02:14 PM

http://www.flayme.com/images/zero.jpg

ansky451

10-28-2005, 02:36 PM

YSSCKY

Bco1/75

10-28-2005, 04:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

MOST BIZARRE STRATEGY POST EVER

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks I thouht I was losing it

Brad F.

10-28-2005, 04:27 PM

This thread is such gold I don't even know where to start.

To Pineapple: Unless you've won $110,000 in one tourney, I'd go ahead and stop insulting someone who has. Pwned.

To OP: You aren't running into Kings all the time. Two players being dealt KK and AK on a given hand is a very small probability. Sorry about your run of bad luck.

To everyone: AK is a premium hand. Period. In the given situation you need a specific read to fold AK here in this spot. Is this the first time he's raised 4x the BB? He's in MP and there are antes in the pot. His range could be anywhere from suited connectors to all pairs to all broadway to any two. It really depends on a read. If he's been the tightest guy at the table and if you can narrow his range down to QQ+ or AK, it is correct for you to see the flop here. And in a normal online game this is almost impossible to do.

AK is difficult to play sometimes, but only because often times we feel as if it is the nuts even if we haven't paired it on the flop. Call here, and if we whiff we whiff. But don't be scared playing AK. It is a profitable hand and in this spot a call is warranted.

Brad

Bco1/75

10-28-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It takes a stronger hand to call than to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't gotten to that chapter in the book yet...................
so you have to be better than 1:1 to call a raise? Is that what the book says?

Bco

centja1

10-28-2005, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

It takes a stronger hand than the minimum hand of his range for opening in his position to call an opening raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

Melchiades

10-29-2005, 05:52 AM

We were talking about the caller here sherlock. You said he must have a great hand and AK wasn't one of them. I said he could have a lot of hands and had position. This is pretty standard. I do not have position in the SB, which is why I push. Jeez.

odiggity

10-29-2005, 06:33 AM

well said

JustPlayingSmart

10-29-2005, 03:44 PM

Wow, a post of mine actually got some replies, and even started a small flame war. Some people are saying call and some are saying push, which makes me think that both options are reasonable. Obviously, with less chips I autopush this.

I still think I'm leaning towards pushing this next time (I'm sure I was being results oriented before), but I will at least consider a flat call. This discussion has made me think that I should be pushing with air here much more often than I actually do.

By the way, I wasn't worried about the coldcaller. If it was someone I recognized as a good player, I would consider him having a huge hand, but this guy was coldcalling a fair amount, so I was only worried about the pfr (and wasn't really that worried about him until he called).

10-30-2005, 05:48 AM

My first advice: Don't fold.

I probably call here. That way you might push them off small pairs even if you miss. If you push you probably fold worse aces that you can get some chips out of if an A comes. You're a dog to TT-QQ, so I'd rather see how things shape up before I get my chips in. Oh, and btw, in a 5.5 rebuy, a push may get called by AT-AQ, KQ, and 88.

My final advice: Don't fold.

Will

Cactus Jack

10-30-2005, 06:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
We were talking about the caller here sherlock. You said he must have a great hand and AK wasn't one of them. I said he could have a lot of hands and had position. This is pretty standard. I do not have position in the SB, which is why I push. Jeez.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said, or should have said, there has to be a big hand here and MY--get it?--MY AK in the SB calling a large raise and call is not one of them. Perhaps it was the way I said it, or that you're in the 3rd grade and have not been tested for reading comprehension that caused your confusion.

There was no call for you to get your panties wadded up over this. However, if you want to meet behind the cafeteria after lunch or during recess, I'm sure the other elementary school children would be delighted. I'm sorry you misunderstood me. Once you get into junior high, these things will become second nature to you.

CJ