QQ gets attacked on flop

[MCS]

$20/40 at Tunica Horsehoe. UTG is one of the action players in the game. He's a well-known local LAG. He mentioned once before that he is going to "find out how I play" because I'm new and he's never seen me before. He then raised me on the flop and folded to my turn bet.

I have QQ in MP.

PREFLOP: UTG raises, folded to me, I 3-bet, all fold to UTG, who calls.

FLOP (7.5 SB): T76 rainbow.
UTG checks, I bet, UTG says "I'm finding out how you play again" and checkraises, I 3-bet, he caps, I call.

TURN (7.75 BB): 4 (completes rainbow)
He bets, I call.

RIVER (9.75 BB): 2
He bets, I call.

I really got slowed down by his flop cap/lead turn line. I thought about calling the flop checkraise and raising his turn bet, but I also thought that if he did have (or catch) a big hand I'd get 3-bet on the turn. So I decided to go ahead and 3-bet since I felt like he could have a T or a smaller pocket pair or be trying for a free card with overcards. What I figured would happen is that he would call the 3-bet and then check-call twice.

Then he capped, and I figured that if he had slowplayed AA/KK or had a set I was behind. And if he had overcards I wasn't sure if he might fold to a raise, though I guess if he folded AK that would have been fine with me considering the size of the pot.

Anyway, my main question is whether I should have raised the turn or river. Also, if there's a better line, let me know. Thanks.

[daryn]

well known local lag puts 4 bets in on a T high flop, you have QQ and you're not sure if it's good or not?

you should try to get 4 bb into the pot after this flop

[I.Rowboat]

In my experience playing middle limits, 95% of the players who make a speech in the middle of a hand aren't bluffing, and have some sort of strong hand and want your action. For the other 5%, patter is just part of their "fog of war" style, and they will talk throughout a hand whether they have the goods or not. You state the villain is a well-known LAG, and it from your description I would guess he's part of this other 5%, and uses his mouth to help him gain control of the hand (as he did here).

Personally, based on your description, I would have raised the turn, and kept raising if reraised. If he is LAG, there are a lot of hands that he will play fast that you can beat (88, 99, AT, JJ, JTs, etc.) Obviously, he could have you crushed with AA, KK, a set, or even a flopped straight, but I think in this situation you are ahead of this type of player much more often than behind.

[esspo]

[ QUOTE ]
you should try to get 4 bb into the pot after this flop

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP did, um...uh, get 4 BB in after this flop.

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you should try to get 4 bb into the pot after this flop

[/ QUOTE ]

The OP did, um...uh, get 4 BB in after this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]



UHMMM ERRR UHH..


i meant 4 of his bb, 4 each in other words


also by after the flop i meant after the flop action had been completed. sorry for confusion

[vmacosta]

Let's see...he raised pf utg and then 4-bet the flop. There's no cap HU so when he 4-bets oop, you have to start giving him credit for a real hand. AT/KT seem possible and would probably call a turn raise but all sets and overpairs will likely be 3-betting and after you've basically told him you have a showdown pair, I'd think you are a pretty hefty underdog to a 3-bet. So if you want to find a raise, find it only on the river, as his 3-bet will be far less likely to be trying to push you off your hand and more for value. I've played a fair amount at the Horseshoe, and even against local lags, I think putting in 4BB on 4th and 5th would mean you lost the vast majority of the time.

I dont think its impossible for you to ever be ahead here, but let's backup for a minute. He raises PF UTG, and proceeds to 4 bet the flop. Given his description, I think it's highly likely he's holding 10-10 through A-A. I think that only a maniac will play AK that aggressively on the flop, given the fact that you advertised that you have a hand that you're not throwing away. LAG's get dealt AA, too, and by the way he played it, it sounds like AA or KK or 10-10 in this spot. Like I said, unless you told me he was a maniac, I'd give him credit for a hand that you're willing to pay all the way to see. I think I would have played it differently, though. I like the three bet PF, but on the flop I wouldn'y have put in the extra bet, I would have waited for the turn. As for the chatter, don't pay any attention to it. If it means anything, I think it means he has a hand and wants you to pay if off.

Good flop line, raise the turn, call the river.

[MCS]

It seems like others don't fear the 4-bet as much as I did. I still think if I raise the turn I get 3-bet by a better hand a lot, though maybe he would have slowed down with KK. I certainly don't think I want to be 4-betting the turn. I don't even know if I like calling a turn 3-bet (though I would) which is part of why I didn't raise the turn.

vmacosta's "raise the river" idea is interesting.

Results: He had AK. After we turned our cards up on the river, he goes, "Ah, hey, I slowed you down!" Which is sorta true. But he did put in a total of 4BB after I had pretty much made it clear that I had an overpair, so whatever. If I were him, when my checkraise got 3-bet, I would have used that info to check-fold the turn unimproved.

EDIT: TxRedMan, were you saying to 3-bet the flop and then still raise the turn? I was a little unsure.

[waffle]

[ QUOTE ]
If I were him, when my checkraise got 3-bet, I would have used that info to check-fold the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't attribute your thinking to others with completely different styles. He's a well known LAG. After 4 bets go in on the flop raise this turn and call down if he pops it again. /images/graemlins/frown.gif He wants to gamble. Let him.

Being a LAG don't you think he'd want to put in 4 raises w/ AA and KK preflop? He could see how you play preflop too then.

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
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If I were him, when my checkraise got 3-bet, I would have used that info to check-fold the turn unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't attribute your thinking to others with completely different styles. He's a well known LAG. After 4 bets go in on the flop raise this turn and call down if he pops it again. /images/graemlins/frown.gif He wants to gamble. Let him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't thinking that way during the hand. I was just sorta commenting today on how I might have played it if I had AK and was up against someone I thought I might run over.

At the time I was concerned about AA/KK/TT/77/66, but I think he plays AT/KT/JJ the same way, so...eh, I dunno. I hate feeling like LAGs slow me down by going nuts on the flop, but I also hate getting three-bet on the turn with this action. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MCS]

[ QUOTE ]
Being a LAG don't you think he'd want to put in 4 raises w/ AA and KK preflop? He could see how you play preflop too then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I thought about that, but at the time I didn't know if he was Tricky LAG or Bulldozer LAG.

He knew when it got back to him preflop that it would be headsup. So for all I knew he could have gotten tricky with AA (or KK) by just calling there.

[flawless_victory]

im generally pretty happy to fivebet this flop.