ROI from folding all the way to the pushing zone?

I wondered if anyone who multitables uses a style of play like this. Simply folding virtually everything until you reach the levels to start a perfect push/fold strategy?

Or would this pass up too much +EV before you reach the bubble stage to make it work?

Does anyone have experience of what buyins can this might produce a +ROI at, if so I’d appreciate your opinions.

I ask because I’m starting to multitable and considered simplifying my early level play to help me deal with the extra tables.

[Nicholasp27]

raise aa/kk/qq/ak, limp pps for set value (<10% of ur and villian's stacks) and fold everything else until u have <10bbs and then play perfect icm poker

that'd get u +roi at least at the 10s/20s

u can get more roi by playing more hands effectively, but tight then pushbot can be +ev at lower levels

i think raptor said he pushes aa/kk/qq/ak and folds everything else until <10bbs when he 20-tables the 10s/20s

raptor was doing this at the $22s, read through is posts and you should get the answer to this question. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mr_J]

"but tight then pushbot can be +ev at lower levels"

At 55s and maybe 109s too if you pushbot very well.

[Unoriginalname]

I used to play like that. The only hands I would play before I was push/fold mode were AA, KK, QQ, AK, and I'd limp with PP. You can beat the 11s and 22s with a positive ROI playing like this as long as you are good with ICM and pushing on the bubble. I can't speak for higher levels of play, but from what I hear this doesn't work at 55s and higher. It's not the optimal way to play, but if you are a poker neophyte and suck at post-flop play, it might be the best way for you to start.

If you ever want to be a true STT cognoscenti though, you have to learn how to play post flop in the early levels. 6-max NL ring helped me a lot with that.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
"but tight then pushbot can be +ev at lower levels"

At 55s and maybe 109s too if you pushbot very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

and 215, 400, and 1000 at least, if you pushbot nearly perfectly.

c

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
"but tight then pushbot can be +ev at lower levels"

At 55s and maybe 109s too if you pushbot very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps at the 109s you will get paid off so rarely with AA-QQ in level 1-3 since regulars might pick up the über tightness that it will hur ROI quite a bit.

No doubt someone who is excellent at pushing might have a +ROI, but that isn't really a reason to pass on +EV opportunities.

[WarDekar]

It's a reason if it allows you to play enough more tables to make more hourly...

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a reason if it allows you to play enough more tables to make more hourly...

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely if you squeeze in so many tables that you simply don't have time to play level 1-3, you will inevitably end up in situations where you don't have time to play good pushbotting later on in the SnGs.

[ QUOTE ]
I used to play like that. The only hands I would play before I was push/fold mode were AA, KK, QQ, AK, and I'd limp with PP. You can beat the 11s and 22s with a positive ROI playing like this as long as you are good with ICM and pushing on the bubble. I can't speak for higher levels of play, but from what I hear this doesn't work at 55s and higher. It's not the optimal way to play, but if you are a poker neophyte and suck at post-flop play, it might be the best way for you to start.

If you ever want to be a true STT cognoscenti though, you have to learn how to play post flop in the early levels. 6-max NL ring helped me a lot with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think my post-flop play it ok, but if I start 8 tabling I want to keep it simple to start off with.
I'm going to try dropping to the $11's and play sets of 8 using this strategy. My ICM, bubble play and ITM play are pretty sound, so I’ll play 250 sngs and see what my stats look like.
If I’m +ROI it "should" prove my late play is good. Then I can work on early level post-flop skills.

Thanks for the comments

[Vetstadium]

If you are 8 tabling with two monitors really not that difficult after awhile. Still early on I pretty much stick to the mentioned strategy but vary my AK play depending on position etc. I will limp on button early with lot of callers with suited connectors since I have learned to get away from a hand (lol) if I don't nail the flop hard.

[raptor517]

from what i have played, and what i have seen.. these are my predictions on what perfect pushbotting with that uber tight strategy can get you.. assuming you are an EXPERT pushbotter..

11s.. i have no idea 25% maybe
22s.. 20%ish
33s.. 17%ish
55s.. 13%ish
109s. 7-9%ish
215s. 4-5%ish

thats kinda rough.. but should be relatively close to what you can expect playing perfect pushbot. holla

[Mr_J]

Your've convinced me to perfect my pushbotting skills and hit the $215s. >$200/hr sounds nice, apparently I'll still only lose l in 4 weeks on average and will rarely have a losing month. That's based on the ROI simulator with 500 games a week at 4.5% ROI, tested over 100k sims.

Course I don't have much margin for error at 4-5%, so I'd want to know I'm unbelievable.

[raptor517]

[ QUOTE ]
Your've convinced me to perfect my pushbotting skills and hit the $215s. >$200/hr sounds nice, apparently I'll still only lose l in 4 weeks on average and will rarely have a losing month. That's based on the ROI simulator with 500 games a week at 4.5% ROI, tested over 100k sims.

Course I don't have much margin for error at 4-5%, so I'd want to know I'm unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

4-5% is what the best pushbotter in the world will do. also, go ahead and check what kinda variance you can expect to see. i really dont care.. common 10k swings suck ass to make 150-200 an hour. it really messes with yer head. holla

[Mr_J]

"go ahead and check what kinda variance you can expect to see"

I did = ROI simulator /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm used to sportsbetting type variance.

But yeh since I wanna make a $hitload of money by dec 31st (and not be +/- 20k), I'll just stick to my plan of 12tabling 55s.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your've convinced me to perfect my pushbotting skills and hit the $215s. >$200/hr sounds nice, apparently I'll still only lose l in 4 weeks on average and will rarely have a losing month. That's based on the ROI simulator with 500 games a week at 4.5% ROI, tested over 100k sims.

Course I don't have much margin for error at 4-5%, so I'd want to know I'm unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]

4-5% is what the best pushbotter in the world will do. also, go ahead and check what kinda variance you can expect to see. i really dont care.. common 10k swings suck ass to make 150-200 an hour. it really messes with yer head. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

10k swings? Ouch!

Are the 215s even worth it in general? The win rates seem so much lower and they have all of the absolute best SNG players. I wonder if the 109s aren't close per hr with a lot less variance.

[ChrisV]

I've recently decided the answer to this question is "no".

215s have improved out of sight from when I first started playing them in June or July last year. Pushbotting is no longer adequate, and I'm damned if I'm going to actually concentrate on the games and play top notch poker to get my money. I switched down to the 55s where I'm optimistic about profits of $100/hr 8-tabling (ROI = low 20s). I may also give the $100s a shot but every time I tried them back when I was 215ing they didn't seem that much easier than the 215s.

[ QUOTE ]
from what i have played, and what i have seen.. these are my predictions on what perfect pushbotting with that uber tight strategy can get you.. assuming you are an EXPERT pushbotter..

11s.. i have no idea 25% maybe
22s.. 20%ish
33s.. 17%ish
55s.. 13%ish
109s. 7-9%ish
215s. 4-5%ish

thats kinda rough.. but should be relatively close to what you can expect playing perfect pushbot. holla

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Raptor, these are a good target for me to aim for.

[ QUOTE ]
Your've convinced me to perfect my pushbotting skills and hit the $215s. >$200/hr sounds nice, apparently I'll still only lose l in 4 weeks on average and will rarely have a losing month. That's based on the ROI simulator with 500 games a week at 4.5% ROI, tested over 100k sims.

Course I don't have much margin for error at 4-5%, so I'd want to know I'm unbelievable.

[/ QUOTE ]


Interesting.
Mr_J could you run a sim on the $22's at 20%ROI

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Raptor, these are a good target for me to aim for.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't aim for results. You don't control them.