clangs

[Tommy Angelo]

I'm playing a lot of shorthanded these days. I'm in my best-ever mental and physical shape, playing in the toughest player pool I've ever swam in. It is war, and peace, together.

And I do love my enemies. And music is made from the clangs of our swords ...

Five-handed $80-160. I was on the button with ten-eight sooted. UTG limped, the cutoff folded, I raised, the small blind folded and the BB called. Threeway. The flop was Q-7-4 rainbow. Checked around. The turn card paired the four, and it put a backdoor flush on board (not my suit). The big blind bet, the limper folded, and I called. The river was a jack. He checked, I bet, and he folded.

[jba]

so was this your plan when you checked the flop?

don't you think you have a better chance of winning 6 sb's on the flop for the price of 1SB, than you do of winning 4BBs for 2BBs? or is that extra BB just too juicy to pass up?

[baronzeus]

i guess your play is fine, but i would much rather just bet the flop and take it down with the worst hand.

[stackm]

I'm playing a lot of full ring these days. I'm in the drunkest and most incoherent shape of my life; I couldn't feel better. The game was 2-4, 9 players at the Imperial Palace. The taste of delicious, partially hydrogenated cookies filled my mouth. The action was folded to me; I look down at AK in the cutoff and raise. The button and big blind call. The flop comes, 862, rainbow. It's checked to me, and I bet. Everyone folds.

Victory.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
The game was 2-4, 9 players at the Imperial Palace.
...
Everyone folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm in the drunkest and most incoherent shape of my life

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd say

[newhizzle]

i think this hand is above my level of thinking, but why not just bet the flop?

when you call the turn, are you planning to raise the river if bet into, or did you anticipate this river check?

[Justin A]

This must be why you like the button so much.

[Paluka]

This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[Mikey]

go deeper into the hand.
1. desribe your opponnent
2. describe his state of mind
3. describe some previous hands you played with him
4. what is your current image in the game
5. are you winning or losing at this point
6. is your opponennt winning or losing
7. what were his mannerisms on the turn when he bet; something must have told you he didn't have it and to call there.
8. is he type to bet with bad hands and check with good hands
9. Is he the type that never checkraises and this is the reason why you bet?

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me, but if this is the case, isn't the play to raise, so we don't give him the chance to catch something on the river?

I could understand the call better if we have a hand worthy of showdown, but we don't.

Surely, we're not trying to squeeze another bet out of him by waiting until he bets the river to bluff raise?

Someone tell me what I'm missing. If it's a "you don't play this high so you wouldn't understand thing," at the very least let me know.

-McGee

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then is there any reason we don't raise the turn?
-James

[Eric P]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing a lot of full ring these days. I'm in the drunkest and most incoherent shape of my life; I couldn't feel better. The game was 2-4, 9 players at the Imperial Palace. The taste of delicious, partially hydrogenated cookies filled my mouth. The action was folded to me; I look down at AK in the cutoff and raise. The button and big blind call. The flop comes, 862, rainbow. It's checked to me, and I bet. Everyone folds.

Victory.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brilliant

[I.Rowboat]

Remember, it takes a bigger hand to call than it does to raise. Assume everyone at the table knows this. Tommy's call on the turn would be very ominous to the right kind of observant player, especially one who happens to be bluffing. Ironically, a raise in this spot can suggest weakness, whereas a call suggests, "give yourself a bit more rope, buddy." Sometimes, subtlety is more effective than aggression; just another way of playing poker. As the saying goes, "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail."

[Klepton]

bet the flop. raise the turn.

i miss bison.

[jason_t]

I'm not sure if I understand; why not raise the turn?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then is there any reason we don't raise the turn?
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

If our opponent is on a draw then he'll call and we have to follow through on the river. Seems like this is a cheaper way to get the same result, and we can only put in the second bet when our opponent misses his draw and checks the river.

[Paluka]

I prefer calling to raising as well against the type of opponent I think this is. He won't continue a bluff on the river, and he will likely view a turn raise with more suspicion than a turn call (and with good reason). When you just call the turn on this board, it looks like you just want a showdown.

[danderso8]

Excellent observation, rowboat. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[anatta]

Flop checked around, the board pairs and BB bets out. I suspect if Tommy raised, due to the quality of opponent, he would get re-raised a decent amount, as BB knows Tommy knows that BB is bluffing a lot here.

Like the other guy said, the call here is sometimes more scary and looks like some slowplay. The problem is the BB will follow through on river due to the flush draw (he will hope Tommy has it and will fold river), but here he didn't so the river plays itself.

awesome!

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you serious?

[nfscreech]

Raising the turn is not really believable. We checked the flop and now the 4 comes off. That couldn't have helped our hand. Villian may call and lead a blank river, thinking we have overcards/a busted bdflush.

Also, villian may have a made hand. Raising the turn commits us to 2 bets. If villian calls the turn raise, we have to guess whether or not he was on a draw. We may fire another bet at the river, only to find out he had a made hand. However, if we call the turn bet, and villian leads the river, we can fold, and our play costs 1 bet. If he checks, we can now steal this pot at a greater success rate than the turn raise. This is especially true if a high card comes off on the river.

[durrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
go deeper into the hand.
1. desribe your opponnent
2. describe his state of mind
3. describe some previous hands you played with him
4. what is your current image in the game
5. are you winning or losing at this point
6. is your opponennt winning or losing
7. what were his mannerisms on the turn when he bet; something must have told you he didn't have it and to call there.
8. is he type to bet with bad hands and check with good hands
9. Is he the type that never checkraises and this is the reason why you bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

This post was awful. And i like tommy's posts. Cmon at least give some reasoning or something. I can talk about big Ace high calls i made (in NL), but noone cares unless there is a specific (and good) reason for the play. I really would like these 9 questions to be answered.

[BobboFitos]

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

[dankhank]

it's as if some people responding to tommy's posts have spent zero time sitting at a poker table and studying how a game can flow, and all their time in some realm where poker rules and strategies exist, but the game is never actually played against thinking opponents.

it's a lot harder for a bluff to work when it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[mike l.]

im with you on this one tommy.

couple weeks ago. i have 64o in the bb mirage 20-40 short handed new game. sb doesnt chop. folded to him he raises, i call. the flop is KQ3, he bets, i call. the turn is a Q. he checks, i bet, he folds.

[andyfox]

I hope Tommy's critics read his post carefully. Each paragraph.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope Tommy's critics read his post carefully. Each paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

tommy has critics?



anyways, i think calling the turn is much better than raising it.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt looking good for you bob...

[ihardlyknowher]

[ QUOTE ]
it's as if some people responding to tommy's posts have spent zero time sitting at a poker table and studying how a game can flow, and all their time in some realm where poker rules and strategies exist, but the game is never actually played against thinking opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly! It's called 8-tabling.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
The river was a jack. He checked, I bet, and he folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is you were bluffing with the best hand. Figure an Ace would call the river, since his kicker shouldn't matter. So do you get K-high and Ten-hand hands to fold, I would guess yes on Ten high to avoid splits for sure. TA will have to give us a guess at K-highs for his opponent.

For a post called clang there doesn't seem to be a lot of thrust and parry going on, or even swings. Seems more like a duel where you each take your turn firing your 1 shot.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt looking good for you bob...

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhahahahahahahah
haha
ha
good one /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
i have 64o in the bb mirage 20-40 short handed new game. sb doesnt chop. folded to him he raises, i call. the flop is KQ3, he bets, i call. the turn is a Q. he checks, i bet, he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is an example of what? If you say your called the flop planning to steal on the turn...OK...I guess, but I don't understand the flop call unless you have opponent specific knowledge. Or didja put him on 5-high?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]


anyways, i think calling the turn is much better than raising it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain Chris?

[mike l.]

"I don't understand the flop"

what i held didnt matter. i decided on the flop there was a strong chance he did not have a K or a Q, given the openraising hand range a sb non-chopper typically has is huge, much larger than online where chopping is not an option. so all i needed to do was represent in his mind that i had one of those big cards. flat calling (as opposed to raising) the flop was the best way to do so.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
For a post called clang there doesn't seem to be a lot of thrust and parry going on, or even swings. Seems more like a duel where you each take your turn firing your 1 shot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Checks can be thrusts. Checks can be parries.

[andyfox]

I liked nfscreech's explication.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I liked nfscreech's explication.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks; I missed it.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising the turn is not really believable. We checked the flop and now the 4 comes off. That couldn't have helped our hand. Villian may call and lead a blank river, thinking we have overcards/a busted bdflush.

Also, villian may have a made hand. Raising the turn commits us to 2 bets. If villian calls the turn raise, we have to guess whether or not he was on a draw. We may fire another bet at the river, only to find out he had a made hand. However, if we call the turn bet, and villian leads the river, we can fold, and our play costs 1 bet. If he checks, we can now steal this pot at a greater success rate than the turn raise. This is especially true if a high card comes off on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Nice explanation.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
it's as if some people responding to tommy's posts have spent zero time sitting at a poker table and studying how a game can flow, and all their time in some realm where poker rules and strategies exist, but the game is never actually played against thinking opponents.

it's a lot harder for a bluff to work when it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup. its called online poker.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
im with you on this one tommy.

couple weeks ago. i have 64o in the bb mirage 20-40 short handed new game. sb doesnt chop. folded to him he raises, i call. the flop is KQ3, he bets, i call. the turn is a Q. he checks, i bet, he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

i use this line all the time online.

[BradL]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but I've done this live too.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the kind of hand that never makes sense online, but I've done this live too. You just know that when the guy bets the turn he has absolutely nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done this online with a fair amt of success, but I play tighter than aggro bet-monkeys like you, polka.

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For a post called clang there doesn't seem to be a lot of thrust and parry going on, or even swings. Seems more like a duel where you each take your turn firing your 1 shot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Checks can be thrusts. Checks can be parries.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love this.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
This hand can be played profitably here.

[/ QUOTE ]

not by me. but i play bad.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if I understand; why not ditch it preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Not in a 5-handed game with an UTG limper and a likely tight/solid image. This hand can be played profitably here.

[/ QUOTE ]

this isnt looking good for you bob...

[/ QUOTE ]

it never is

[Lawrence Ng]

All I can say is that this is the perfect flop, with the perfect turn card and the perfect river card against the perfect line up with the perfect position for this to perfectly happen.

Nice read Tommy. I'm figuring that your Spidey sense told you that he had a draw based on how sluggish he bet the turn which could have indicated weakness.

Tommy, what do you do if you he bets on the river when

a. An ace comes
b. your pair comes (either T or 8)
c. A queen or 4 comes

Thanks

Lawrence

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Checks can be thrusts. Checks can be parries.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they can't.

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
so all i needed to do was represent in his mind that i had one of those big cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

All you really need to do is catch him with a hand that (in his mind) can't win a showdown...like T8s.

[TStoneMBD]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
im with you on this one tommy.

couple weeks ago. i have 64o in the bb mirage 20-40 short handed new game. sb doesnt chop. folded to him he raises, i call. the flop is KQ3, he bets, i call. the turn is a Q. he checks, i bet, he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

i use this line all the time online.

[/ QUOTE ]

i use this line online sometimes as well, but i prefer to do it on drawless boards. i think the move is less reliable on a KQ board because there are gutshot draws. if im going to make this play its probably going to be on a K83r board. i dont think ive ever done what tommy did in this hand though.

[The Truth]

I like the way tommy played this hand.


blake

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope Tommy's critics read his post carefully. Each paragraph.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would prefer they don't. Makes my games easier.

[andyfox]

The difference I see is that your opponent bet the flop. I'm not quite sure how you determined that he hadn't anything, other than your table presence and person-reading ability (which is, of course, plenty to go on, given your abilities in both areas). Tommy, though, had the advantage of the checked flop, which enabled him to figure the turn bet as probably a draw (if not an out-and-out bluff).

One thing I think that's important about your hand is that we sometimes give up too easily on the flop for one small bet, especially head-up. Against a guy who'll always follow through on a pre-flop raise with a flop bet, and is passive enough to check/fold the turn unimproved, it can indeed be quite profitable, with position, to just call on the flop and bet if he checks the turn. If he bets the turn, then you have the option of folding (most of the time) or, if convinced he's got air, raising.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference I see is that your opponent bet the flop. I'm not quite sure how you determined that he hadn't anything, other than your table presence and person-reading ability (which is, of course, plenty to go on, given your abilities in both areas). Tommy, though, had the advantage of the checked flop, which enabled him to figure the turn bet as probably a draw (if not an out-and-out bluff).

[/ QUOTE ]
In Tommy's case they were checking to the preflop raiser. In a lot of games, this does not give that much information about the strength or weakness of their hands than the flop bet does in Mike's hand.

[mike l.]

"All you really need to do is catch him with a hand that (in his mind) can't win a showdown...like T8s."

right but keep in mind that given the way i played the hand he is forced to throw away many A high hands as well, although he may call down with AJ and AT, since he will feel compelled to call a turn bet with those. every other non-pair hand will have trouble calling down though.

right now good players tend to play this way a lot: smooth call on flop heads up=good hand. raise=weak hand.

[mike l.]

it wasnt as much a feeling that he had nothing as a narrowing of his hand range to about 95% of all possible hands and the subsequent immediate realisation that "hey there's close to little chance he has a hand that really likes that flop."

one other thing is i think that shorthanded early in a session it's smart to play somewhat randomly when choosing between raising and calling with all hands ranging from weak to huge. the chances you will be getting in heads up situations repeatedly with the same players is strong so you can really exploit some seemingly "bad" play by you early on in your favor later. people are quick to make assumptions and slow to change them once made.

[andyfox]

Maybe, but they tend to do this less in shorthanded games, and at these stakes than at lower limit ring games. Also, I would think his opponents know that Tommy doesn't autobet in this spot.

[andyfox]

"the chances you will be getting in heads up situations repeatedly with the same players is strong so you can really exploit some seemingly "bad" play by you early on in your favor later. people are quick to make assumptions and slow to change them once made."

nh. While I'm only an occasional shorthanded player, these metagame considerations do seem much more important shorthanded. Thanks.

[AceHigh]

You seem to understand Tommy, better than most and Tommy's not talking so - why check the flop? Isn't this a good flop for missing and bluffing (uncoordinated and pretty drawless)?

And what do you do on the river if he follows up the turn with a bet?

"Tommy can you hear me?"

[mike l.]

the best thing that can happen is tommy wins the pot on the end and stacks the chips. but the second best thing is for him to be called and then he turns his cards up and says nothing and gives nothing (shameless showdowns he calls them) and loses the pot but his opponents are befuddled, confused, incorrectly thrilled or excited, it spells trouble for them if they start to reconstruct the hand in their heads. it leads them down the path to losing serious chips to tommy in the future.

it's only a little worse than the first best that can happen. theyre both good things. it's a win-win situation.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
the best thing that can happen is tommy wins the pot on the end and stacks the chips. but the second best thing is for him to be called and then he turns his cards up and says nothing and gives nothing (shameless showdowns he calls them) and loses the pot but his opponents are befuddled, confused, incorrectly thrilled or excited, it spells trouble for them if they start to reconstruct the hand in their heads. it leads them down the path to losing serious chips to tommy in the future.

it's only a little worse than the first best that can happen. theyre both good things. it's a win-win situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

great analysis imho

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
the best thing that can happen is tommy wins the pot on the end and stacks the chips. but the second best thing is for him to be called and then he turns his cards up and says nothing and gives nothing (shameless showdowns he calls them) and loses the pot but his opponents are befuddled, confused, incorrectly thrilled or excited, it spells trouble for them if they start to reconstruct the hand in their heads. it leads them down the path to losing serious chips to tommy in the future.

it's only a little worse than the first best that can happen. theyre both good things. it's a win-win situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for this.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing a lot of shorthanded these days. I'm in my best-ever mental and physical shape, playing in the toughest player pool I've ever swam in. It is war, and peace, together.

And I do love my enemies. And music is made from the clangs of our swords ...


[/ QUOTE ]

This is so stupid it made me laugh out loud for real.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
"Tommy can you hear me?"

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a sensation.

SpaceAce

[AdamL]

I don't think I caught it, if an explanation was given -- why not try to take it down on the flop?

[AdamL]

shameless bump

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I caught it, if an explanation was given -- why not try to take it down on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy doesnt answer questions, he just creates them /images/graemlins/smile.gif