I am a calling station

[tyler_cracker]

First hand at the table. Hero has 76/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the BB.

2+2er UTG raises, awful LAG MP calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop (8 SB): Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)

Hero checks, 2+2er UTG bets, awful LAG MP calls, Button calls, Hero raises, 2+2er UTG 3-bets, awful LAG MP calls, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn (9 BB): 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, 2+2er bets, LAG raises, Hero calls, 2+2er calls.

River (15 BB): T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, 2+2er bets, LAG raises, Hero calls, 2+2er 3-bets, LAG calls, Hero calls.

[MrWookie47]

If villain wasn't a 2+2er, I'd say cap the river. As you played the hand, it's impossible to put you on anything but a flush, but he still 3bet the river. Do you think he knew you were a 2+2er as well? I'm thinking this hand was perfect.

Edit: I misread the hand thinking hero was the one to c/r the river. However, his action may still be correct. See below.

[milesdyson]

i'd cap the river (i wouldn't 3-bet the first time it came to me though)

edit: i take this back. i thought this thing was 3-handed to begin with, which in my mind made it less likely for UTG to pump a flush draw out of position. if he didn't have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif i don't like his play.

[Nick C]

It seems all right to me, really.

A flop cap is an option, and I probably wouldn't have been able to resist (you should have an equity edge, at that point), but capping then could cut down on your action on later streets when you actually improve. (Also, capping the flop and then checking the turn is a little awkward, though it's what I would have done if I did cap the flop.)

On the river, I'm tempted to check/3-bet. But the 2+2er might fold if you do that, so unless the LAG is going to cap after such a show of strength on your part, a 3-bet often won't gain you anything anyway when you're best.

After that, I'm tempted to cap, figuring there's a good chance I'm best more than a third of the time. But the 2+2er's river 3-bet is a bit of a concern, I think. Edit: Your hand is about as well disguised as it can be under the circumstances though (given that you didn't check/3-bet), but this becomes less true if the 2+2er knows who you are.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd cap the river

[/ QUOTE ]

meee tooo

[MrWookie47]

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i'd cap the river (i wouldn't 3-bet the first time it came to me though)

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap. I misread the action. I thought hero c/r'd and villain 3bet him. This is the superior plan.

[milesdyson]

i don't know. i think i would just call.

if the LAG had shown any aggression on the flop and UTG still led into him on the turn, then i'd be capping this river. but i probably wouldn't be able to cap it.

too often, UTG played a flush draw in an odd way purposely (by betting the turn) in order to get more bets on the river. don't give him the last bet.

[aargh57]

I think, yes the river call is bad but I think that maybe a re-raise may be okay when it gets back to you on the river. The LAG might have trips, 2 pair or even worse. You may get 2+2er to laydown a better flush but the only flush he would lay down would be J9s. Right now you gotta think you have the best hand so if you're right and reraise 2+2er will fold and LAG will call so you gain 1 more bet. If you are now reraised by the 2+2er you can safely fold. If you just call you may or may not gain 1 more bet from 2+2er but you will probably lose an extra one when you're behind and you make a crying call (as in this case).

[MrWookie47]

If any 2+2er would fold a flush in this situation, speak now. You're in dire need of getting smacked around by this forum.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
If villain wasn't a 2+2er, I'd say cap the river. As you played the hand, it's impossible to put you on anything but a flush, but he still 3bet the river. Do you think he knew you were a 2+2er as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain definitely knew i was a 2+2er, since he arrived in the same car as me /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm thinking this hand was perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. I'm gonna be all afterglow-y for the rest of the day. Thanks, Wookie.

[lautzutao]

Can I still get smacked around if I don't agree with a fold?

[aargh57]

Yeah, you're right.

[MrWookie47]

I think I could see him maybe playing QQ (77? How many people are at this table?) this way against a known lag (thinking he rivered two pair). However, he still 3bet a river c/r when a flush (and unlikely straight) card fell. However, you're right in that it's hard to put him on a hand that he really played well that isn't a flush. I guess the EV of capping is pretty slim at best.

[tyler_cracker]

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However, he still 3bet a river c/r when a flush (and unlikely straight) card fell.

[/ QUOTE ]

He actually just 3-bet a raise behind him, not a check-raise.

[bottomset]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I could see him maybe playing QQ (77? How many people are at this table?) this way against a known lag (thinking he rivered two pair). However, he still 3bet a river c/r when a flush (and unlikely straight) card fell. However, you're right in that it's hard to put him on a hand that he really played well that isn't a flush. I guess the EV of capping is pretty slim at best.

[/ QUOTE ]

um no decent TAG passes up a 3bet on the turn on a board like that, with either set

[Slim Pickens]

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if he didn't have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif i don't like his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did in fact have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I don't understand why people dislike my turn bet with 15 outs after 3-betting the flop. If I check-call the turn, I might as well turn my cards up there or just make myself a little sign that says "on flush draw." My equity deficit is small there (~33% if my overs are good, 20% if they're not) and it will always pay me at least on extra BB on the river if I hit, possibly a lot more.

One small note: the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif was the river and the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif was on the flop.

[milesdyson]

i like your play, since you had A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

also switching the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif and 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif makes your play fine with A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif as well. it's kind of a big note.

[sean c]

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if he didn't have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif i don't like his play.

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I did in fact have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I don't understand why people dislike my turn bet with 15 outs after 3-betting the flop. If I check-call the turn, I might as well turn my cards up there or just make myself a little sign that says "on flush draw." My equity deficit is small there (~33% if my overs are good, 20% if they're not) and it will always pay me at least on extra BB on the river if I hit, possibly a lot more.

One small note: the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif was the river and the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif was on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ten /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the flop changes thing quite a bit. Your turn equity was at 26% on your nut outs alone before you even count your overcards as partial outs.

[tyler_cracker]

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I did in fact have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I don't understand why people dislike my turn bet with 15 outs after 3-betting the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was uncertain about the flop 3-bet before, but just convinced myself that it is for value with all those outs.

Slim, what did you put me on when i check-raised the flop?

[ QUOTE ]
One small note: the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif was the river and the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif was on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not convinced of this, because then the LAG (who held J9/images/graemlins/spade.gif btw) would have been open-ended on the flop, and i didn't think that was what happened. I could be wrong, though. Sorry this is so unprofessional, y'all /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[shant]

I don't understand your reason for not checking the turn. Because they'll figure out you're on a flush draw? Do you expect to win unimproved with AK-high against 2 players that stayed in on the flop for 3 bets? I check-call the turn.

[Slim Pickens]

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Slim, what did you put me on when i check-raised the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any two. That's why I 3-bet.

I'm pretty sure the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif was the river, but not 100%. Um, now I guess you've unsured me. Did you see his J9? What was all that "pair the board" BS then? Not that if the 3rd heart paired the board I wouldn't have 5/6-bet the river against that guy.

EDIT: The T/images/graemlins/heart.gif on the flop gives him a straight plus SF/flush draw on the river, making the whole "Pair the board" comment make sense. I'm pretty sure the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif was the river.

First, I think that you played this hand well and there's no argument up until the river part. I wouldn't bother capping the flop or anything to limit my action on later streets if you do hit your draw.

So basically, the argument here is to cap or just call the 3-bet on the river. I'm leaning on calling since we don't have anywhere near the nut flush plus taggish opponents oftentimes push good draws hard to mask them. It's hard to tell whether or not he has the flush, but the river action seems fishy. Perhaps 2+2er has 99 and hit a straight? Who knows. Capping still seems too extreme here.

Edit: There those times where you feel like a calling station since others are taking command of the hand, esp. when you're on a draw. And when you do hit your hand on the river, you still only call. But they seem to be few and far between.

[Slim Pickens]

Also, I think 5 bets is a cap at Gold Coast, not 4, so if Hero 4-bets the river, 2+2'er is the one capping.

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
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if he didn't have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif i don't like his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did in fact have A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I don't understand why people dislike my turn bet with 15 outs after 3-betting the flop. If I check-call the turn, I might as well turn my cards up there or just make myself a little sign that says "on flush draw." My equity deficit is small there (~33% if my overs are good, 20% if they're not) and it will always pay me at least on extra BB on the river if I hit, possibly a lot more.

One small note: the 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif was the river and the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif was on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ten /images/graemlins/heart.gif on the flop changes thing quite a bit. Your turn equity was at 26% on your nut outs alone before you even count your overcards as partial outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I flopped a Royal flush draw, I completely didn't notice. I thought the queen might have been black, but anyway, you're right. I forgot about my three Broadway outs too so between 25% and 38%.

EDIT: That makes no sense. The queen had to be Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. I'm an observant player for sure.

[Shillx]

Fold the river for 2 bets. Handreading 101 tells you that he (the 2+2er) has a flush given the action. All this talk about 4-betting the river or 3-betting to get a flush to fold in non-sense. An UTG raiser will either have a king high flush or the nuts here. These hands are not going away, even if you pushed all-in. And 4-betting the river is basically the same as handing the guy a four dollar bill.

Brad /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Edit - Donk the river.

[ArturiusX]

Call me crazy, but I fold.

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Call me crazy, but I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're crazy.

(and i don't get the fold. See my forthcoming response to Brad.)

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold the river for 2 bets. Handreading 101 tells you that he (the 2+2er) has a flush given the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm supposed to put 2+2er on a flush given his river bet? Or do i put him on the flush after he 3-bets and then fold for one more bet?

[ QUOTE ]
Edit - Donk the river.

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How does this help me? When i'm pretty sure either 2+2er or LAG will bet for me, why would i want to do this?

[Shillx]

He 3-bets the flop: Okay he has top pair, over pair, set, flush draw, etc.

He bet/calls the turn: One pair or a flush draw.

He bets the river on the T/images/graemlins/heart.gif: He has a flush. He isn't going to donk with one pair when he could have just 3-bet the turn to collect the overlay. He isn't going to play a set like this. The only way the T /images/graemlins/heart.gif helped him was to give him a flush, and any flush he has beats your flush. It didn't give him 2-pair and it didn't give him trips tens, it gave him the nuts.

Brad

Edit - Okay re-read the thread. It is even more obvious when teh 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif falls on the river. Hmmm what could he have....Q2o!!! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

What am I missing here?