(22) AJ flops TPTK with scary board

Reads:
Chumchatawa (BB) is a super-donk who calls down with any piece and plays 75% of all hands. Bradschwan99 (SB) seems solid.

Escondido Single Table Tournament, 26 Oct 2005 11:42 PM
View Previous | Next hand for this table.
Seat 1: sp00nie_luv ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 2: mark126 ($1,450 in chips)
Seat 3: bickleDNA ($1,280 in chips)
Seat 4: Pokerdoggs47 ($1,265 in chips)
Seat 5: holdat8580 ($1,760 in chips)
Seat 6: HERO A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif ($1,450 in chips)
Seat 7: Otothetoe ($510 in chips)
Seat 8: bradschwan99 ($2,090 in chips)
Seat 9: Chumchatawa ($2,165 in chips)
Seat 10: bsdpt ($1,560 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
bradschwan99 posts blind ($10), Chumchatawa posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
bsdpt folds, sp00nie_luv folds, mark126 folds, bickleDNA folds, Pokerdoggs47 folds, holdat8580 folds, HERO bets $50, Otothetoe folds, bradschwan99 calls $40, Chumchatawa calls $30.

FLOP 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 10/images/graemlins/club.gif

bradschwan99 checks, Chumchatawa checks, HERO bets $150, bradschwan99 calls $150, Chumchatawa calls $150.

TURN 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

bradschwan99 checks, Chumchatawa bets $350, HERO?

If you say call, what's my plan for the rest of the hand?

Folds.

Would you guys fold JJ? AA? How would you respond if checked to again on the turn? If checkraised? I think this is a somewhat interesting hand. I might be wrong, though. Keep in mind that the donk bettor on the turn is really a huge donk, although the true extent of his badness only fully emerged as the tourney progressed.

.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you guys fold JJ? AA? How would you respond if checked to again on the turn? If checkraised? I think this is a somewhat interesting hand. I might be wrong, though. Keep in mind that the donk bettor on the turn is really a huge donk, although the true extent of his badness only fully emerged as the tourney progressed.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you had JJ, and the flop came like that (straight draw), I would make a standard 3/4 pot bet or full pot bet so you don't give him the outs for drawing to a straight. If you had AA, same thing. If he calls you and that 8 came and bet big, then you would have to fold.

[aaronk56]

Fold. If he is a super donk calling station like you say, he won't bet unless he has the nuts. He made his straight.

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
PRE-FLOP
bsdpt folds, sp00nie_luv folds, mark126 folds, bickleDNA folds, Pokerdoggs47 folds, holdat8580 folds, HERO bets $50

[/ QUOTE ]

Ewww. Why are you betting 2.5x the blind at level 1???
You have to bet 75 before anyone even considers folding.

You also have two people check-calling a semi-significant bet on a draw-heavy flop. I am definitely folding TPTK here as well as AA. JJ would be a lot more difficult to fold, especially because you have 10 outs against the straight. But my line would've been much different with JJ or AA so this situation wouldn't really be similar.

[ QUOTE ]
Fold. If he is a super donk calling station like you say, he won't bet unless he has the nuts. He made his straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

As well as being a calling station, he bluffed crazily, often, and for lots of chips. This type of player has always been a little difficult for me to play.... That said, I still thought it was sort of an easy fold, but I wanted to see if that was too weak/tight. Is there ever a player wild enough whose bet you wouldn't respect here (4 to a gutshot on the board with a 2-flush on the flop)?

Regarding the 2.5 bb preflop raise.... 75 would not have gotten many more folds than 50. In the early levels I tend to limp AJ in EP, folding to a raise, and raise a small amount in LP. As I know I will be called for any bet less than 6 BB or so, I bet smaller so I waste less when I miss a flop. Second, the blinds are tiny and not worth too much risk to steal so I'm not that concerned about getting them to fold. Also, building a large pot entices the worst of the worst players to bluff more, which can be difficult with a hand which, at best, is going to flop top pair. Basically, I wanted to make a bet which would maximize the odds of getting it heads-up at the lowest cost. Any hand the SB would call 50 with, I believe he would call 75 with. Does anyone limp here?

Finally, how was my bet on the flop? I decided to pot it precisely because there was such a draw heavy board, and I knew I probably had the best hand of the three. When they both called, I was of course a bit sick because I knew about 1/2 the deck was going to be scary on the turn. Does anyone bet less here? More? Does the looseness/donkness of one of your opponents matter?

Thanks a lot for your input.

(As a side-note, villain berated me for folding here ("You knew I had it now you're so mad!") causing me to have to turn my chat off. Later, he 3-bet allin with k7 on a king high board, having called a pf raise and losing to AK top two. Buddy list.)

[kyro]

I'm not calling. He's called a PF raise, called a bet, and is now leading out. I would be shocked if he couldn't beat a pair of Jacks here, and I highly doubt your outs are good.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
As well as being a calling station, he bluffed crazily, often, and for lots of chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you want to get reasonable responses, you need to include this kind of thing in the OP. it's obviously crucial.

i'd be inclined to call here and see what the other guy does, but i'm planning on calling any bet on the river if the other guy folds.

I thought "super-donk" included tendency to recklessly bluff. Basically, I was just fairly certain he was a bad player, and I had already seen him go allin postflop into a small pot.... Early in the game, it's hard to know exactly who you're up against, so I guess I didn't know for certain how crazily he bluffed until I saw him play 20 more hands. Sorry about the misinformation.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought "super-donk" included tendency to recklessly bluff. Basically, I was just fairly certain he was a bad player, and I had already seen him go allin postflop into a small pot.... Early in the game, it's hard to know exactly who you're up against, so I guess I didn't know for certain how crazily he bluffed until I saw him play 20 more hands. Sorry about the misinformation.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are many kinds of donks...

and i try to just stick with the info i had at the time the hand played.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought "super-donk" included tendency to recklessly bluff. Basically, I was just fairly certain he was a bad player, and I had already seen him go allin postflop into a small pot.... Early in the game, it's hard to know exactly who you're up against, so I guess I didn't know for certain how crazily he bluffed until I saw him play 20 more hands. Sorry about the misinformation.

[/ QUOTE ]

there are many kinds of donks...

and i try to just stick with the info i had at the time the hand played.

[/ QUOTE ]