HU: River Action

[fsuplayer]

2k party games.

i have 2k he has me covered.

villian has been winning more than his share of smallish pots in the 15mins we have played HU. i havent caught anything as of yet. seems pretty reasonable/TAGish, the kind of guy i dont think you have a huge edge against, but im still getting to know him.

he was raising a good amount pf, with and w/o position, but not getting too out of line post flop.

i complete 54o and he knocks on the button that is also the BB.

flop: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

i lead for 40, he calls real fast.

turn: 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

i check and he bets $125 into a $115 pot. i call.

river: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I check, he bets 350. I CR allin.

im mostly interested in the river. is leading better here? what about a smaller CR?

thanks,

fsuplayer

[durrrr]

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seems pretty reasonable/TAGish, the kind of guy i dont think you have a huge edge against.


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and

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I CR allin

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= huh?

[fsuplayer]

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seems pretty reasonable/TAGish, the kind of guy i dont think you have a huge edge against.


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and

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I CR allin

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= huh?

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im more likely to get called here by a thinking player than a mediocre 10-20 player, right?

[mikech]

i like it. if he has a set you're getting all his chips any way you play it. he probly doesn't raise your river lead with a 2pr hand, but he might call your c/r push with 2pr. and all-in is better than a smaller c/r; let him think you're trying to buy it with busted hearts.

[RED FACE]

I think the push is ok. Only problem is that he's been winning more than his share of small pots so rather than losing his stack hoping you're bluffing he folds and goes back to winning lots of small pots(he thinks). If this is the case I could see him folding even a small set but you really don't know where he's at because his play looks like it could be a pure steal after you showed weakness. I don't think a donk w 2 pair calls your cr all in but a donk w 2 pair could call a size raise, maybe.

edit: and I don't like leading the flop because he only showed aggression when you showed weakness so if you continue there is at least a chance he will continue.

[chuddo]

when i first read the hand, i thought it was a bluff. i was going to say i didn't really like it too much.

seeing how you actually have a wheel i didn't notice, i like it, as you get a little value out of a bluff, and a lot of value if he has a real mitt.

[Allinlife]

nh..like mike said, no way he's laying a set and you may get a call from 2 pair.

though in reality, you probably never make these bets as bluffs.

[Spladle Master]

I like it a LOT. This is exactly how I would play this hand. Obviously if I had the SBB I'd open-raise. Flop lead is standard. Turn is a check-call 'cause I wanna see the river. River action is a check because you've gotta let him bluff if he's got missed hearts, and the overbet is good for many reasons.

[durrrr]

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seems pretty reasonable/TAGish, the kind of guy i dont think you have a huge edge against.


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and

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I CR allin

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= huh?

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im more likely to get called here by a thinking player than a mediocre 10-20 player, right?

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I think that the villain has 45 here very often, therefore i think that you CANT be bluffing (at least not profitably), between the times that he calls w/ sets (not very often, only his higher ones), and the times when he has the nuts. A thinking player should be able to realize this and fold most of his hands. Thinking players dont go broke in limped in pots against the obvious nuts very often.

i really like this line too... depends how much you're going all in tough. might be better to raise to 900 or so depending on your image.

[Spladle Master]

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I think that the villain has 45 here very often, therefore i think that you CANT be bluffing (at least not profitably), between the times that he calls w/ sets (not very often, only his higher ones), and the times when he has the nuts. A thinking player should be able to realize this and fold most of his hands. Thinking players dont go broke in limped in pots against the obvious nuts very often.

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This hand was played heads-up. As in, only two hands were dealt.

[durrrr]

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This hand was played heads-up. As in, only two hands were dealt.

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your an idiot.

To the OP; what would you do w/ 22 in villain's spot (after your river push)? What do you think most fairly solid players (as you described this one) would do? There are times when a push is ok, but early into a heads-up with a TAG, decent opponent, whom isnt tilted (and doesnt think you are) i doubt that a push is anywhere near the most profitable line.

[etizzle]

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seems pretty reasonable/TAGish, the kind of guy i dont think you have a huge edge against.


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and

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I CR allin

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= huh?

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im more likely to get called here by a thinking player than a mediocre 10-20 player, right?

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I think that the villain has 45 here very often, therefore i think that you CANT be bluffing (at least not profitably), between the times that he calls w/ sets (not very often, only his higher ones), and the times when he has the nuts. A thinking player should be able to realize this and fold most of his hands. Thinking players dont go broke in limped in pots against the obvious nuts very often.

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personally i instacall here with A8, A6, and all sets

[durrrr]

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personally i instacall here with A8, A6, and all sets

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And expect to see?

[mikech]

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personally i instacall here with A8, A6, and all sets

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And expect to see?

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a busted flush? worse 2pr? if you're folding a set on that board where exactly ONE straight is possible--in a hu match no less--you're out of your mind.

[Spladle Master]

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your an idiot.

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Sweet, sweet irony.

[fsuplayer]

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seems pretty reasonable/TAGish, the kind of guy i dont think you have a huge edge against.


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and

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I CR allin

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= huh?

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im more likely to get called here by a thinking player than a mediocre 10-20 player, right?

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I think that the villain has 45 here very often, therefore i think that you CANT be bluffing (at least not profitably), between the times that he calls w/ sets (not very often, only his higher ones), and the times when he has the nuts. A thinking player should be able to realize this and fold most of his hands. Thinking players dont go broke in limped in pots against the obvious nuts very often.

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personally i instacall here with A8, A6, and all sets

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this is exactly what i was thinking as well.

to those of you who wouldnt go broke with a set there, well, stick to full games bc you will get run over folding in these spots.

his turn/river bet was really what lead me to CR all in as an overbet.

he slightly overbet the turn, which is often a tell of strength. his river bet was also quite strong, not some 'please call me with an '8' bc I have a crappy ace' value bet. it reeked of strength.

after I moved in, he thinks for almost the whole time (which now a days isnt much) and calls with A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/club.gif.


thanks for the responses.

[RED FACE]

Does a decent tag villain bet near the pot last on the river w a real hand if he puts hero on a busted draw?

Does a decent tag villain continue to try to bully on the river(by betting 350 on 365 pot) last w air after strongly betting at hero's weakness on turn and getting called?

I think the answer to both of these is no. So I don't think villain is a decent h2h player for this limit so I read his betting as having a weak hand and not wanting a call. So what is the most likely raise to get called? The smallest, of course. So min raise.

[fsuplayer]

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Does a decent tag villain bet near the pot last on the river w a real hand if he puts hero on a busted draw?


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a draw is one possibility, but so is an 8, a weak ace etc. this is HU, im checking calling the turn with more than just draws.

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Does a decent tag villain continue to try to bully on the river(by betting 350 on 365 pot) last w air after strongly betting at hero's weakness on turn and getting called?

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yes, of course people bluff on the river. /images/graemlins/confused.gif in full games as well as SH'd and even more in HU.

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So I don't think villain is a decent h2h player for this limit so I read his betting as having a weak hand and not wanting a call. So what is the most likely raise to get called? The smallest, of course. So min raise.


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wow.

since when does a weak hand who is bluffing the river going to call a raise?? his bets told me either a ton of strength, or nothing at all.

i lose nothing if he has air and folds, and as etizzle said, aces up has a real tough time folding here and a set doesnt.

[VanVeen]

C/R is by far the best river play. He will bet many hands he cannot call a bet with ($$) and you get more value out of aces up, which will rarely raise a 'real' lead but will occasionally call a check-raise. He goes broke with a set either way. You lose some value vs. an ace w/an unpaired kicker that will check behind (but sometimes bet?) but look you up, but I don't think he has a hand like that often enough given the action for it to sway your decision.

If he calls any check-raise at all he calls all-in. Definite shove.

[RED FACE]

I didn't think a decent tag would pot bet river w a bluff after that action. I would think either less or more.

This is what makes me think he's bad so I thought you were simply very unlikely to get any call at all but just incase he has a hand min raise.

Given his AK I am suprised he bet so much on the river. I guess once you called the turn he's put you on a weaker A and a river bluff.

[etizzle]

A2, A3, 79, 75, 22, AK, 68, or total air most of the time

[FoxwoodsFiend]

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I didn't think a decent tag would pot bet river w a bluff after that action. I would think either less or more.


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Why? Clearly a decent tag bluffs this river from time to time-hero has shown no real strength and could be waiting for a big bet to fold.
So given that a TAG is capable of bluffing, what's wrong with a pot-sized bet? What makes you say that this sized bet is never a bluff? It seems like the perfect bluff amount because it's roughly what a big hand should be betting trying to get some value.

[durrrr]

he isnt a decent TAG if he played AK this way imo. That or decent means something different to you than to me. Villain is pretty awful to go broke w/ 22 here.

[RED FACE]

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I didn't think a decent tag would pot bet river w a bluff after that action. I would think either less or more.


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Why? Clearly a decent tag bluffs this river from time to time-hero has shown no real strength and could be waiting for a big bet to fold.
So given that a TAG is capable of bluffing, what's wrong with a pot-sized bet? What makes you say that this sized bet is never a bluff? It seems like the perfect bluff amount because it's roughly what a big hand should be betting trying to get some value.

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I thought a value bet in this situ would be much closer to 1/2 the pot but I don't play this high so if it's pretty standard, okay.

[fsuplayer]

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he isnt a decent TAG if he played AK this way imo.

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sigh.

this was my opinion of him before this hand.

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Villain is pretty awful to go broke w/ 22 here.

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are you calling with66 here?

[AZK]

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after I moved in, he thinks for almost the whole time (which now a days isnt much) and calls with A K .


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Do you bet this river if you have AK?

[BobboFitos]

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after I moved in, he thinks for almost the whole time (which now a days isnt much) and calls with A K .


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Do you bet this river if you have AK?

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yes

do you call a c/r? hell no

You really would check tptk in that spot hu?

[AZK]

No, I'm just asking, I too want to start learning HU play so I was just curious...seems like you wouldn't want to bet the river against particularly tricky or aggro people...

[BobboFitos]

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No, I'm just asking, I too want to start learning HU play so I was just curious...seems like you wouldn't want to bet the river against particularly tricky or aggro people...

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i'd be more inclined to bet against an aggro player, because he would've shown a little more strength earlier in the hand, and it sure looks like he's trying his best to showdown a weaker hand, no?

villain just made the mistake of calling the c/r all in. Who knows what he's thinking...

I'm sure I've done worse though, you just say, "fuggit, he's making a move on me, I'll make him show me a better hand"

[etizzle]

i really dont think anyone in the world is laying down 22 here.

[fsuplayer]

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after I moved in, he thinks for almost the whole time (which now a days isnt much) and calls with A K .


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Do you bet this river if you have AK?

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nearly every time.

[durrrr]

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he isnt a decent TAG if he played AK this way imo.

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sigh.

this was my opinion of him before this hand.


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k sry, understood- thought you still had this opinion of him after the hand.
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Villain is pretty awful to go broke w/ 22 here.

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are you calling with66 here?

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Occasionally i may be calling w/ T8 here, however i think i fold 22 a fairly large % of the time given the action. I didnt phrase my post right... I should have said "villain is pretty awful imo to go broke w/ 22 here every time." Granted its a little easier for me to say i'd fold 22 knowing that you had 45 here, but i am honestly trying to be unbiased and think about this spot(villain's), which i've been in quite a bit (i play a lot of SH/HU 10/20 fwiw), and i think i would expect 45/33 as very likely holdings of yours (if i was villain). Obviously i am more likely to call w/ 66 than with 22, mainly because i think 33 is a very likely holding of yours.

Obviously after seeing that villain would call w/ AK here i think there is 0 chance he is folding a set, and if you played this same opponent again you should push the river in similar situations. However, if you were somewhat confident of your read that he was "A decent TAG" then i strongly dislike your line.

[Spladle Master]

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I didn't think a decent tag would pot bet river w a bluff after that action. I would think either less or more.

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Because you think this, it can't be true.

[Spladle Master]

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he isnt a decent TAG if he played AK this way imo. That or decent means something different to you than to me. Villain is pretty awful to go broke w/ 22 here.

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Serious question. How many hands of heads-up NL hold 'em would you guess that you have played in the past month?

[durrrr]

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Serious question. How many hands of heads-up NL hold 'em would you guess that you have played in the past month?

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really not an accurate guess... but if i needed to make an over/under i'd go w/ ~10k in october.

[Spladle Master]

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Serious question. How many hands of heads-up NL hold 'em would you guess that you have played in the past month?

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really not an accurate guess... but if i needed to make an over/under i'd go w/ ~10k in october.

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'Kay. I guess I just play against better opponents than you do.

[creedofhubris]

Calling his pot bet on the turn seems quite poor, unless you're planning to bluff a heart, or are certain he'll pay off huge.

I like the river play.

[youngin20]

ok, i like the CR...but why are you calling an overbet with a gutshot and 2 unders? I mean, i guess its nice to backdoor the nuts, because that disguises your hand. then again, hit your straight and you almost definitely stack him because you played it how you did. Just gimme your thoughts on calling the 125 so i can untangle my brain.

i agree. why are you calling this turn bet? there's next to nothing in the pot, and you're getting 2-1 to catch and 11-1 hand. that means for it to be profitable, you have to know he's paying off right? i could be wrong in that assesment, but i think the turn call is questionable.

as for the river, if i'm the villain i call with aces up and all sets, and easily muck a single pair. i like the allin move on the river, because it looks like you've missed a big hand like a pair and a flush draw. if i put the villain on AK i play it the same way, because anything less looks like you want a call, and the allin says im gonna buy this thing right now.

[mgsimpleton]

is it really possible that people still cannot read a poker board?

also, fwiw i think the turn call is pretty standard given the implied odds but i think you might only have 6 outs for nice implied odds so it's definitely close. also i think his call with AK here after limping in is atrocious, but nh.

[mikech]

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you're getting 2-1 to catch and 11-1 hand.

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"i only have a gutshot...wait, what's this on the turn? sweet, double-gutter."

[mikech]

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is it really possible that people still cannot read a poker board?

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txredman had an infamous thread in the mh limit forum where he tried to defend his play when he didn't raise aces from the bb, so i suppose misreading a board could be expected too.

[creedofhubris]

Calling the pot with eight outs on the turn, headsup, out of position? This is standard? Bleah.

[Ulysses]

What was your river plan when you called the turn?

[mgsimpleton]

i think your implied odds are too good to pass it up. if he's bluffing you'll usually get it back just on the bluff on the river and if he has a hand you're set...

[Malachii]

What was your plan if a non straight heart came on the river?

[Ulysses]

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i think your implied odds are too good to pass it up.

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I disagree.

[captZEEbo1]

I think you should fold turn. IMO people pay way too steep a price to draw to hands that can't get paid off by 1 pair or other flush draws etc etc. I think this kind of call is ONLY okay if you knew for a fact villain had a set. Villain can easily have something like 97 here or 85 and then you just paid > pot bet to draw to somethin that won't get paid off. You really only have 6 clean outs IMO.

[Ulysses]

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I think you should fold turn. IMO people pay way too steep a price to draw to hands that can't get paid off

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I agree.

[KaneKungFu123]

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I think you should fold turn. IMO people pay way too steep a price to draw to hands that can't get paid off

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I agree.

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board is sooted too.

It was from the SB, btw, not the BB. Not that it matters, but it's incorrect to make the same play PF everytime in every position. But enough of that.

Well, seeing that he's drawing at 8 outs instead of four, I can see his call assuming he thinks the villain will pay off. I still laydown on the turn there, though.

[fsuplayer]

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i think your implied odds are too good to pass it up.

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I disagree.

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his overbet of the turn, however slight, was something he hadnt done at all yet and signaled that he had a holding he was quite fond of. I thought the combination of that, as well as having a hand thats super concealed, was more than enough to get paid off enough there.

also playing HU, I will take a small- EV if hitting it means that ill stack him and possibly tilt him big time. which is what happened here afterwards.

ps. my plan for hitting a heart/straight card was to lead for about the pot on the river, and to CR a non flush straight card, which i did. i wasnt planning any bluff this early against him, esp. with that turn overbet.

[Ulysses]

I would have liked your play fine if you were going to bluff a heart. Since you weren't using hearts as outs, I don't like your play for reasons already discussed.