K8s UTG

[fsuplayer]

im trying to break my streak of posting uninteresting hands, so this is my latest attempt. another 2+2er disagreed with the action I took.

a hand from a while ago, when eurobet was party, and party was, well, still party.


4 handed 10-20NL.

I am running well and completely running over the game.
I have reraised a handful of times pf and havent been called yet. I am also stealing alot after raising pf.

im waiting for one of them to take a stand, and hoping ill wake up with a good hand when they do.

so....
BB has 2300 and I cover. he has stats of 27/15/2, with some of that SH'd. he seems pretty TAG, and is on another of my tables, but we havent tangled much yet.

i raise UTG to 80 with K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. button and SB fold. bb calls.

flop: 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet 150 after he checks. he calls fairly quick.

turn (470): K /images/graemlins/spade.gif

he checks again and I bet 380.

he CR's to 950.

thoughts on hand ranges and suggested action?


thanks,

fsuplayer

[FoxwoodsFiend]

I almost never bet this turn. I don't think many worse hands call here out of position on a 3-spade board letting a 4th spade fall and having to fold isn't a sufficient reason to open yourself up to a check-raise. Basically, I think that this is a pot-control issue.

[KaneKungFu123]

two pair
straight
flush
he thinks your bluffing that scary card and wants to take it away - but why raise so much, plus you have aggro image?

without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[Rocaix]

Hand range: A /images/graemlins/spade.gifKx, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif6x, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif7, A /images/graemlins/spade.gif4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 67, 23(trying to represent spades), Kings Up, made flush.

Set or smaller 2-pair probably jams on the flop, so they seem less likely.

I'd check the turn behind, simply because I don't think too many worse hands will call that turn. But many will raise it, and put you in a tough spot.

Given your line, I think a case can be made for folding, calling or pushing. It's one of those I have to be at the table type things to get a good feel as to what decision to make.

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[KaneKungFu123]

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[ QUOTE ]
without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[mikech]

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without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
ok. but my question wasn't whether to check behind or to bet, it was why an underbet rather than a strong bet? you'll get c/r'ed more often, i would think. are you more likely to call the c/r if it comes?

[Rocaix]

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without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the negatives of giving a small spade a free card really outweigh the times we get check-raised off the best hand. I don't think worse hands call here very often (at least the size of that bet), but will frequently check-raise. It just boils down to an issue of pot control vs giving a free card here.

[fsuplayer]

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without a stronger read i just fold here, and would underbet the turn next time.

[/ QUOTE ]
i'm curious kane, why would you underbet the turn? i'd check behind too like FWF suggested, but if i were to bet, it'd be a good-sized one; an underbet seems to invite a c/r even more than a strong bet.

[/ QUOTE ]


i wouldnt check behind bcause i dont want to lose to 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
ok. but my question wasn't whether to check behind or to bet, it was why an underbet rather than a strong bet? you'll get c/r'ed more often, i would think. are you more likely to call the c/r if it comes?

[/ QUOTE ]

kane-

i know sometimes you want to underbet, like with a set on a flush board, so that if you are CR'd, its cheaper to call. another benefit is that they will call you with lesser holdings.

but im not sure of the reason for the turn underbet here kane. surely you cant be thinking of calling the CR hoping to improve?

[BluffTHIS!]

That K was good for your hand but might have been better for him, and you have outs to improve. Your bet just allowed him to either run you off or make a bad call believing that was all he was doing when he wasn't. If you check and improve then you get to bust him sometimes, and if another spade comes he might not like it either if he had flopped a straight or set, so you can often either get a cheap showdown if you want or bluff him off the winner. Taking the risk of a hand outdrawing you like KKF was talking about doesn't outweigh the other factors that argue for checking behind. And if he does make a 3 high flush he probably isn't calling any meaningful bluff by you on the river if he checks. By allowing yourself to be checkraised you wasted your position and got turned into the guesser.

[Spladle Master]

I can't put him on a hand. Under those circumstances, my default play is to call and re-evaluate on the river.

[KaneKungFu123]

i dont see him firing two barrels, chk-raise turn, bluff river.

so id underbet here, call the raise, wait for the river.

i think full pot builds the pot too big if you dont have a clear idea what you want to do.

[KaneKungFu123]

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I can't put him on a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


Think: Flush.

[Spladle Master]

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I can't put him on a hand.

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Think: Flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
I did. I think many things. Perhaps it would have been better if I had said, "I do not know what he has." Obviously a flush has to be considered, but so do some of the hands that rocaix mentioned.

[Spladle Master]

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Does the negatives of giving a small spade a free card really outweigh the times we get check-raised off the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why must we fold to the check-raise if we think there's a good chance that we have the best hand?

[kagame]

quick calls always make me think draw

[coltrane]

fsu,

discussing this hand is at the same time both great and useless.....decisions like this in hands like these are quintessential to big-bet....but, once general mechanics of the game are understood, there is no real "right" answer here and everything comes down to the player - your read of him, his tendencies, the gear he's in, what gear he thinks you're in, etc (which is why I just cannot play this game well on the internet /images/graemlins/grin.gif ) and then applying the correct strategy accordingly.....

some random thoughts about the general stuff though......

it's a raised pot and effective stacks are just over 100bb to start the hand - stacks are WAY too shallow here to think about any kind of "calling a turn checkraise hoping to improve" (if you're behind, you're likely drawing to 4 outs) REGARDLESS of how little you bet on the turn.....the only reason I'd ever think about underbetting this turn is if I'm playing against the type of guy will checkraise at any hint of weakness - and then of course I'd be underbetting merely to set a trap......

some key things to think about are: is this villain the type of player to checkraise the turn big without a cinch made hand? (either pure bluff or semi-bluff) - some guys just aren't and if the answer to that is indeed no, there just aren't too many "real" hands you are ahead of on the turn......if the answer is yes or sometimes, you need to get a read on how the current gear you're in might affect that.....could the probability of him having a hand like TsTx or 8x7s or AsKx etc. be high enough to make calling/pushing worth it? (both in terms of how he played his hand preflop and on the flop as well as the turn).....

[whitelime]

When I am running over a table, I find that one of two things usually happen. It's interesting because it's almost a black or white mechanic. There are times when players find it necessary to play back at me every chance they get. If that was the case, I would probably be looking to get my money in the center with your hand. Other times, however, the rest of the table almost goes into a shell. This is when running over a table becomes insanely profitable. They refuse to play back at you and will wait for the pure nuts before making a move. It seems like your case is more of the latter. At that point, you have to use your judgment and think about the hands you beat that your opponent will raise for "value" on the turn. Given your description of the table, I think your opponent has you beat often enough that you can fold this hand.

[fsuplayer]

good post.

I think this hand comes down to the villians tendencies on the turn. if he is CRing a made hand, then i am behind more than I am ahead. add in semi bluffs to that, as well as air though and it becomes damn close i think.

the problem with the turn is that it really looks like a play that some regs at the 10-20 pull from time to time. which is call a flop continuation bet, and then CR a turn high card, like an ace, so that ill fold my missed high cards, as well as mid-highish PP's, and maybe even some aces. the kink in that though is that card also brought the flush.

i felt like he could pull this turn CR with a pair, a pair +spade, air, as well as made hands. which i do have outs against, which helps a tiny bit.

my image at the time, as well as the fact that these guys hadnt seen me before that day and might just view me as a crazy LAG turned this into a no-fold for me.

I didnt love it, but i felt he is semi bluffing a decent amount and CRing a made hand i beat occasionally like KQ or AK, either with or without a spade. so i didnt want to call and see a bunch of ugly cards on the river. so i pushed.

[fsuplayer]

forgot to add the results. opponent took his entire time allotment and folded for the last 1k.