FPS?

[AtticusFinch]

I'll state up front that I think my flop bet should have been a little higher. Comments on the turn?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t800 (9 handed) wacki's version of bison

Button (t18470)
SB (t9574)
BB (t46265)
UTG (t13800)
UTG+1 (t35655)
Hero (t21643)
MP2 (t32970)
MP3 (t26401)
CO (t16845)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
2 folds, Hero raises to t2400, MP2 calls t2400, 4 folds, BB calls t1600.

Flop: (t6800) 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J /images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t3200, MP2 folds, BB calls t3200.

Turn: (t13200) 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

I myself wouldn't check the turn, I mean, why would you fear that 4 dropping right there? Someone with AJ or an overpair right now is going to feel suspicious, and if they have that and a flush card drops, you are getting no more money out of those hands. Add on top of that you are giving someone with a jack in their hand a free card to beat you!

On the other hand, any decent player who is drawing to the flush will see that check there, and might come to the conclusion that even if they hit their flush, it's not going to be good if it comes.

I'd continue with a 3200 bet here, hope villian takes it for weakness and raises me big so I can take down a big pot.

[AtticusFinch]

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On the other hand, any decent player who is drawing to the flush will see that check there, and might come to the conclusion that even if they hit their flush, it's not going to be good if it comes.


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Why wouldn't he put me on a flush draw of my own?

A line I've been using that works well is a smaller bet than your first one, as this mirrors a fish's "second barrel" and will either get cold called, giving you implied odds, or raised, and you can go from there.

but yall are better than I, so what do you think?

[ajizzle]

It depends. How is the BB playing? If he is playing his big stack like a pussy, then why not bet. If he is playing it like a big stack, then checking it is the best play really. Only 3 scare cards can hit the river, and it gives him a chance improve any number of hands, ie, flush, straight, another pair....

The only time I see an aggro player NOT betting the river would be if he improved his hand, but only slightly, like if he had 9T and the 9 or T of diamonds hit the river.

[EverettKings]

There's nothing wrong with this hand. In position, checking the turn is great. Out of position I'd hate it. But you open so many doors to more action this way. This isn't FPS at all, it's more standard than anything.

I mean, what could he pay you off with on a turn bet? His range on the flop is quite wide and includes diamonds, mid pairs, AJ type hands, etc. Why not represent a missed AK or other scared hand and go from there? If he makes a flush or straight theres almost no chance of you not getting doubled through.

That was a lot of rambling to say yes, I like it.

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On the other hand, any decent player who is drawing to the flush will see that check there, and might come to the conclusion that even if they hit their flush, it's not going to be good if it comes.


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Why wouldn't he put me on a flush draw of my own?

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They might put you on one, but if one comes on the river, you are not getting any more out of it. I'd still rather make a bet here to get more money into the pot. And if they are chasing a flush and don't hit, they are not going to put any more into the pot on the river anyways, so it's best to go ahead and get some more chips in while you can, IMO.

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There's nothing wrong with this hand. In position, checking the turn is great. Out of position I'd hate it. But you open so many doors to more action this way. This isn't FPS at all, it's more standard than anything.

I mean, what could he pay you off with on a turn bet? His range on the flop is quite wide and includes diamonds, mid pairs, AJ type hands, etc. Why not represent a missed AK or other scared hand and go from there? If he makes a flush or straight theres almost no chance of you not getting doubled through.

That was a lot of rambling to say yes, I like it.

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Who is to say if you don't put a similar bet out now like you did on the flop, he isn't going to call with a flush draw or straight draw? And if he does hit his draw after your turn bet, he is either going to bet out on the river, or is going to check raise all in, either which gets most or all of his chips into the pot, while still getting chips in now if he misses.

And if Villian has a jack, he might have tried to check raise this turn, and if you check and a flush card hits, he is not going to be very interested in sticking around any more.

[Sam T.]

Everett is right. I really like the bet-check-bet line.

As for the idea of betting smaller on the turn to look like a big baby, I'm of two minds. First, it'll probably get called, so as a value bet it's fine. But I think it would reduce your chances of stacking this guy on the river. Also at the lower levels this play may work, but I don't know that it would against stronger opponents; they would immediately smell a rat.

I don't mind the flop bet. What's a couple of hundred chips between friends? (Unless you were thinking of t4k or something like that...)

Im glad that someone replied to my question, I've been wondering about it.

well, I dont play anything above $55s, so I guess Im talking about lower levels... but. If the better players dont know how good you are, this could also go the way of looking like a fish.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Or am I just putting too much faith in table image?

[adanthar]

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On the other hand, any decent player who is drawing to the flush will see that check there, and might come to the conclusion that even if they hit their flush, it's not going to be good if it comes.

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So when the action goes 'preflop raise, bet, check behind' you immediately put the raiser on a full house? Umm.

No, I don't, but they might (might being the key word) become suspicious that you stopped being aggressive on the board pairing there. If I made a bet on the river when I hit my flush and someone came over the top, I'd put 2 and 2 together though, and figure it's either an elaborate bluff, or I am toast.

[AtticusFinch]

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If the better players dont know how good you are, this could also go the way of looking like a fish.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Or am I just putting too much faith in table image?

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If you show down after making this play, they'll just see it for exactly what it is: a good hand making a value bet that he hopes will be called. Not exactly a fishy play. If you wanted to look like a fish, you'd have to do it with trash. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think when you flop a big hand you need to vary your plays enough so that opponents can never put you on a hand. This is an excellent opportunity to check the turn and hope to get a bet on the river. This serves two purposes: First, it protects the times that you are actually on a draw or just have a hand like AK and would really rather not bet again. Secondly, it may promote action on the occasions you fire a second shot with the hand.

Varying your play is never fancy play. Representing a made hand against a donkey is.

that seems both weak and results oriented (actually one or the other)

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that seems both weak and results oriented (actually one or the other)

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Hmm, how would betting my flush, then folding to someone who raised me all in be weak and results oriented? With that line, I couldn't see any other hand there but a full house, quads, flush that has me beat (if I don't have the nut flush) or a bluff. While there is the possibility it could be a worse flush, most of the time I couldn't see it.

I'd love to hear your explanation on how that is weak though, and explain why it would be results oriented.

I could be wrong, but I think the bet-check-bet line plays a lot like flush. The flop semi-bluff may take down the pot, but if not it often buys a free river.

Ok, I can see that. But if I had the nut flush, and someone came over the top, I would still be very concerned right there, since I know if they have a lessor flush they might be scared of a better flush or a full house beating their flush there and just call (I mean, not saying they wouldn't reraise, just not as likely on a dangerous board).

If this was omaha, I'd definitely give up my flush on that board if I hit it on the river and got raised, in holdem, I'd take my time bank and walk back thru the hand. I'd probably still fold here unless I had a good read, but I wouldn't be quick to call off my whole stack there.

If I had a lessor flush and someone raised me all in on that river, I would have alot easier time giving it up, that is certain.

I still think if I was atticus, I would make a value bet there designed to get a call, and then get definite action from any flush on a river if it hits, and if it doesn't hit, you aren't likely to get more action anyways.

I notice alot of others here like his line, and someone made a good example about varying play, which I 100% agree with, but 4/5ths of the time, I'd probably play it my line there. Not that there is anything wrong with his line, someone with a jack is drawing to 2 outs, and a flush is drawing dead, and a straight is drawing dead. But I like getting extra money out of hands before they get to rivers, because when the river comes, all the cards are on the table, and a missed flush or straight gives up then and there, causing you to gain no more chips.

[SumZero]

I like the line. You raised preflop and got two callers. You made a continuation/probe bet on the flop. It bought you a free card on the turn. The range of hands you can have here is huge. Flush draws, missed over cards, straight draws, etc. I think the turn check with you having position gives you maximum chances of winning a big pot, and is the most +EV thing you can do.

I do this a lot. You give yourself a great chance to double through a made draw on the river, and when you don't get lucky enough for that, you still make money off the many hands that will bluff a river blank or think they're good and bet or check/call the river (TT,QJ, etc.). You only really lose equity against missed draws that decide to check/fold the river and the very unlikely river 2-outer that would've folded..

I'm not sure of a good bet amount if villain checks to us on the river. I likely push.

Incidentally, as you mentioned, this hand really illustrates the need to consider the likely resulting pot amount/stack amounts when considering a bet. If you bet a little more, you get Villain MUCH more committed on the flop.