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10-26-2005, 07:22 PM

I'm Still trying to apply the fundamentals and I want to see how I'm doing. Please critique all streets:

Table overall is 21/9 over 80 hands. Way too tight for my normal taste but I was up 15 BB and playing well overall.

UTG+1 is 22/10/2.0 over 50 hands
MP3 is on his first orbit.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) calls, 2 folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

 I would normally only call AJo UTG but I made a nOOb mistake and thought I was in MP so I bet not seeing any raise in front. I called the 3-bet since I had already committed the first bet. 

Flop: (15 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP3 3-bets, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

 I flop TPB(est)K and figure I’ve got the advantage now so I led because I’m pretty sure UTG+1 will re-raise. I didn’t expect the 3-bet from MP3 so I only call thinking he must have a high PP that he was slowplaying, maybe even the other 2 J’s. 

Turn: (15 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 raises, SB calls, BB folds, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

 I see the possible /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and /images/graemlins/spade.gif flush draws on the board so I am prepared to c/c here given I’m OOP but figuring since the pot is huge I still have odds to call. 

River: (22 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP3 raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls.

 The 3rd J falls and now I know that MP3 doesn’t have but 1 J at most and I’ve got the A kicker. I fire way til I call the cap. 

Final Pot: 30 BB

Including the nOObish mis-raise pre-flop, I didn’t feel good playing this one. Was I too weak on the flop and turn? Did I misread something? One flaw I know for sure was that I wasn't paying any attention to the overcallers. Thanks!

Shillx

10-26-2005, 07:27 PM

Do you understand how little that last jack helps you here? It changes just about nothing in this hand. This hand will hopefully get a good discussion going since there are lots of interesting things to talk about here.

Edited to say that the flop play is interesting and it would be nice to see if betting out is better then checking. I honestly dunno here.

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 07:28 PM

funny that the street you seem to feel (most) bad about is the only street i like. nice preflop raise.

wouldn't bet flop, wouldn't coldcall two on turn, wouldn't 3-bet river.

10-26-2005, 07:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand how little that last jack helps you here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I do. At the time, no. It wasn't until I sat down and drafted this post, reviewing it street by street did a lot of this become clear to me. The process of breaking these hands down for posting is extremely helpful. I hope alot comes out of it too!

10-26-2005, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand how little that last jack helps you here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we thinking that someone flopped a set and therefore made the boat on the river? I would have thought someone 3-betting 22 or 55 PF was unlikely.

numeri

10-26-2005, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand how little that last jack helps you here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we thinking that someone flopped a set and therefore made the boat on the river? I would have thought someone 3-betting 22 or 55 PF was unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's MP3 we're worried about, not UTG+1. Well, we're worried about UTG+1, too, but MP3 is even scarier.

Shillx

10-26-2005, 07:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you understand how little that last jack helps you here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we thinking that someone flopped a set and therefore made the boat on the river? I would have thought someone 3-betting 22 or 55 PF was unlikely.

[/ QUOTE ]

The PF 3-bettor folded. The 2nd jack would be a great card if he were the villian. As it stands, the guy we are facing probably flopped 2-pair and made a boat on the river or flopped a set and made a boat on the river. If he has 52 and flopped 2 pair, he isn't going to go crazy with it on the river.

Brad

10-26-2005, 07:58 PM

Grunch,

I think you misread the hand. I had to read it a couple of times before I think I figured it out. Pre-flop, you thought you were in MP, so I won't comment.

Flop, you bet with TP and a good kicker, UTG+1 raises telling me he's got AA-QQ, flush draw or a set, when MP3 3-bets, I pretty certain he has a set outside chance of a flush draw, but my guess would be 5's. Hard to put the SB on a hand since he's so passive. At this point I drop this thing.

River: yeah it adds a spade flush draw, but mostly I'd figure it's a blank for UTG+1 and MP3, The strong action now REALLY makes me think that at least one set is out there.

Ugly, but I can't say I haven't made the same mistake.

10-26-2005, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The PF 3-bettor folded...

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. So we most likely put villain on 55 or 22 given that it was 2 back to him when he called PF?

10-26-2005, 08:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't bet flop, wouldn't coldcall two on turn, wouldn't 3-bet river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can understand the turn and river comments. Are we not betting here because it's likely that someone has an overpair? Could we check and raise/call if it's only 1 back to us?

J. Stew

10-26-2005, 08:45 PM

Pf raise is good. I like betting the flop, you get to see what other people do and can see when you're behind, which you most likely are on the flop. I'd check/fold the turn because you're getting 10.5:1 and I think you have about 3 outs. (80% drawing dead * 0 outs) + (15% * 5 outs) + (5% * 46 outs) = 3.05 outs

numeri

10-26-2005, 09:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The PF 3-bettor folded...

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotcha. So we most likely put villain on 55 or 22 given that it was 2 back to him when he called PF?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, we don't know anything about him. He's already posted and hence is "invested" in the pot. (A common thought.) Don't put your own thoughts into villain's head - 55 or 22 are definite possibilities here.

10-26-2005, 10:32 PM

PreFlop: I think I'm calling offsuited AJ instead of raising. I'm not a big fan of the raise this far out of position. Though the tight table may mean you will force a lot of others out of the hand. I Call

Flop: I like the lead out bet to allow the Preflop raiser to raise. However, I don't like the 3bet at all.
If the pot was smaller I would be willing to fold here due to position against the aggressiveness. I peel one more just to see

Turn: I'm gone....

River: I think someones got the full house 55pockets the other person has KK/AA
I would be willing to Check river and most definitely not three bet it.

10-26-2005, 10:42 PM

I would normally like the Check/Raise approach on the flop to trap the ones who call after the Preflop raiser. But in this case I think my hand is vunerable and I'm hoping for the aggressive person to help me out early by raising the field.

I think the Check only means I get to bet last after all the callers. At this point I can't raise for value. I feel my hand is only decent so I would have to call and gain no protection

10-26-2005, 10:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch,

I think you misread the hand. I had to read it a couple of times before I think I figured it out. Pre-flop, you thought you were in MP, so I won't comment.

Flop, you bet with TP and a good kicker, UTG+1 raises telling me he's got AA-QQ, flush draw or a set, when MP3 3-bets, I pretty certain he has a set outside chance of a flush draw, but my guess would be 5's. Hard to put the SB on a hand since he's so passive. At this point I drop this thing.

River: yeah it adds a spade flush draw, but mostly I'd figure it's a blank for UTG+1 and MP3, The strong action now REALLY makes me think that at least one set is out there.

Ugly, but I can't say I haven't made the same mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the flop I don't think the raise automatically puts the PFRaiser with AA-QQ. I think you are jumping the gun on this conclusion. I'm not willing at this point to just accept the fact I'm behind.
However, I agree with 3bet conclusion - I think this is bad for us. I think the pot size is creating the most challenge in my eyes.

If I was in a little better position and someone raised to me I would 3bet it with my AJ to protect the pot but would slow down from there.

10-26-2005, 11:44 PM

*grunch*
I would fold when it's two back to me on the turn.

Everything leading up to that is fine.

10-27-2005, 03:50 AM

Yes, I know I made many, mnay mistakes with this one. MP3 had J5c and woke up when he hit two-pair on the flop, made his boat on the river (J's full of 5's), and I sank 9BB on this hand. Thanks for all your feedback!

LG

detruncate

10-27-2005, 04:41 AM

Pf is fine. I don't mind the flop bet. I don't love the position we're in when it's 2 back to us with the pf aggressor still to act, but the pot is very large and there's stil a chance we're ahead or drawing live so I call.

It's an easy fold on the turn with both aggressors still firing away. UTG+1 either wants to prevent giving a free card or is hoping to be rasied so he can 3-bet. MP3 still likes his hand a lot despite UTG+1 showing further aggression. SB has patiently called at every opportunity. We're usually drawing slim to dead. Time to eject.