Air Force coach's racial comments

[judgesmails]

[ QUOTE ]
DeBerry raised the topic Monday while discussing Air Force's 48-10 loss to TCU, telling The Gazette of Colorado Springs the academy needed to recruit faster players and noting, "you don't see many minority athletes in our program."

Asked about it Tuesday, DeBerry noted that TCU had more black players than Air Force.

"It just seems to me to be that way," he said. "African-American kids can run very well. That doesn't mean that Caucasian kids and other descents can't run, but it's very obvious to me that they run extremely well."

[/ QUOTE ]

He said this after his predominantly white team lost to a predominantly black TCU team. His comments brought about some controversy.

I don't see anything controversial about these comments. He was just stating a fairly obvious observation. Look at the 100 meter finals in the world championships or Olympics. Look at almost any sprinting championship for that matter. Blacks dominate. Is it really controversial or somehow demeaning to black athletes to say something like this?

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really controversial or somehow demeaning to black athletes to say something like this?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty demeaning to white athletes. "hey team, you're all so damn slow! Why cant you be more black?"

[pudley4]

It shouldn't be. It's the truth - people whose ancestors come from the Western part of Africa are in general quicker, faster, and more athletic. There's nothing wrong with making a true statement like that.

The problems come when the knee-jerk PC police get involved and start crying about racism. Um, hello, what's racist about saying another race is superior to your own in some way? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

The true problem is that there are some people who make these statements and their underlying meaning is that these athletes don't work hard to be successful (which is almost always completely false).

[holeplug]

Well he shouldn't have said it because it could cost him his job since we live in such a politcially correct world right now. I agree that all he did was make a correct observation though.

[wonderwes]

we will hear this on sportscenter/espn for the rest of the week. Why, because the sports media can not find stories fast enough. Already saw PTI's take, and agreed with them. Correct comment, but not the best public statement for him. Nothing to get him fired though.

[CD56]

Any person in the public eye who makes racial generalizations, even if correct will almost always draw serious criticism and probably face serious consequences, so in that sense it was pretty dumb.

[JayLear]

The problem is not that he made this obvservation. Your parallels to sprint runners and the "majority" of athletes are certainly, as a whole, correct. I think where we get into trouble as a society is making generalizations such as this. "How do we get better? We need to get more black players, because they run faster!" How about, "We need more team speed!" Pretty much says the same thing, without the stereotyping.

This is a problem because as a society we're SUPPOSED to be at a point now where we don't see people for their color. I don't think it's a problem when offering it as a description. "He's the black guy over there!", to me is basically like saying, "He's the guy with the red hair over there!". But statements like what this coach said are what make people look like idiots. Doing things like looking at a black guy and assuming that he must be really good at basketball. Think about it -- maybe he's never picked up a basketball in his entire life, but he happens to be an exceptional lawyer. Or a guitar player.

Statements such as this, while seemingly harmless in concept because they're largely true, end up perpetuating stereotypes in our society that make it very difficult for us to move forward and see things beyond what they're "supposed to be".

The team doesn't need to get blacker -- they need to get faster and more athletic. Believe it or not, they don't mean the same thing.

[lastchance]

Definite agreement with most of this post. However, certain generalizations are correct due to physical/genetic traits. However, saying things without the proper research can be very harmful.

[MCS]

JayLear's post is excellent.

I didn't think DeBerry's comments were racist. And I usually think everything is racist.

In general, this country is terrified to have any honest public racial dialogue. We'd rather stick our heads in the sand.

[judgesmails]

I don't think the stereotype that black athletes are fastest will ever go away because, well, it is the truth. I don't think coaches or media should have to pretend it is not the truth in athletics. Your point about the general man on the street notwithstanding.

If you attended a college football game where one team was 100% black and the other 100% white and that was all you knew about the teams. All other physical factors are equal (size, roster, experience, etc.) And you were offered even odds on a wager before the game started - who would you chose and how much would you wager?

I take the black team for a big bet every time.

[ QUOTE ]
It shouldn't be. It's the truth - people whose ancestors come from the Western part of Africa are in general quicker, faster, and more athletic. There's nothing wrong with making a true statement like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, then try this on for size:

people of Indian and Chinese are generally more intelligent than people from Western Africa. this is just natural intelligence, very similar to running and jumping. this means that people from Western Africa are less intelligent.

I hope you're ok with that.

My personal feeling is that there are inherent differences between all races - some are taller, some are shorter, some are faster, some are smarter. I'm ok with that. We're all different.

But you can only get in trouble by expressing some of these opinions, b/c of the PC police.

remember, whenever you say that one group of people is naturally good at something, you are infeerring that another group of people has natural disadvantages at the same task.

so, while it might be ok to say "those Chinese kids are sure good at math tests", it is certainly not ok to say "boy those (insert group here) kids aren't that good at math"...even though for the first to be true, the 2nd must also be true.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it really controversial or somehow demeaning to black athletes to say something like this?

[/ QUOTE ]
only if the coach is white

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
I didn't think DeBerry's comments were racist. And I usually think everything is racist.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.afunk.com/other/fatalbert/pictures/015.jpg

[JayLear]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think the stereotype that black athletes are fastest will ever go away because, well, it is the truth. I don't think coaches or media should have to pretend it is not the truth in athletics. Your point about the general man on the street notwithstanding.

If you attended a college football game where one team was 100% black and the other 100% white and that was all you knew about the teams. All other physical factors are equal (size, roster, experience, etc.) And you were offered even odds on a wager before the game started - who would you chose and how much would you wager?

I take the black team for a big bet every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, and this is what we need to get away from as a society.

[JayLear]

[ QUOTE ]
remember, whenever you say that one group of people is naturally good at something, you are infeerring that another group of people has natural disadvantages at the same task.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you're also inferring that everybody in that group is naturally good at that task, when that's nowhere near close to the truth.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
remember, whenever you say that one group of people is naturally good at something, you are infeerring that another group of people has natural disadvantages at the same task.

[/ QUOTE ]
And you're also inferring that everybody in that group is naturally good at that task, when that's nowhere near close to the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

of course

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

The problems come when the knee-jerk PC police get involved and start crying about racism. Um, hello, what's racist about saying another race is superior to your own in some way? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't think this is relevant, racism is racism, whether directed at your own race or others. We should be treating others as individuals, not just as robots off the assembly line where you belive someone is "faster" than someone else just because they have a particular skin color.

That having been said, I think DeBerry was expressing frustration that he didn't have as many minorities to choose from, which really means that he doesn't have as big of a talent pool to choose from since the Air Force has poorer minority enrollment than other football factories.

There are plenty of really slow black people in the world, like every race. You just don't notice them because they don't play college football.

[antidan444]

[ QUOTE ]
The team doesn't need to get blacker -- they need to get faster and more athletic. Believe it or not, they don't mean the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to post this, and I'm sure I couldn't have said it any better.

[Homer]

I always get pissed when someone makes a comment like these, then makes a half-hearted apology the next day to keep his job. I wish someone would stand by his comments, firing or no firing.

[MCS]

mmbt0ne, you saying Fat Albert is racist?

P.S. Go Jackets.

do you think it's racist of me to say that the vast majority of Swedish people are taller than the vast majority of Italians?

[HDPM]

Here is an article that has more of his quotations, and IMO they are worse than the quote in the OP. LINK (http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/5026870)

He looks like an idiot. The article also talked about the religious problem from a few months ago. To me that was very bad and should have resulted in his firing.

The USAFA has a mission, and that is to produce officers for the USAF. I know they think that football plays a role in developing the mentality they want at the academy. I tend to disagree with the overall approach there for various reasons and from some personal experiences with their end product, but I think they are right that a military academy uses team sports to contribute to the cohesion of the unit and to assist in the mission of the academy. To that end, a USAF officer needs to work with people of all religions and races, and must be extremely careful to act appropriately with subordinates and local populations of other faiths as they serve as officers overseas. It is clear that the coach taught players that proselytizing and religious discrimination at taxpayer expense was OK. He undermined morale at a military installtion and taught a message contrary to the message officers should take from their experience at the academy. This was a firing offense IMO. But he kept his job since not much has come of the fact that the USAFA was full of evangelicals who discriminated. (The article mentions this, and I have read some other stuff but no links right now.)

There are some problems at the USAFA IMO and the coach isn't helping. This latest thing shows he is a moron, but there's a shock. The football coach is a dolt. Another happy use of tax dollars.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
do you think it's racist of me to say that the vast majority of Swedish people are taller than the vast majority of Italians?

[/ QUOTE ]

worst. analogy. ever.

why?

[ClaytonN]

Because Italian and Swedish is different than black and white, stupid.

[ClaytonN]

By the way, you're all racist.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with these comments. The man speaks the truth.

again, why? don't these 2 groups have unique physical and genetic traits that have been passed down for generations and generations? kind of like africans and northern european caucasions?

I am making no claim of racial superiority - or deficiency - of any one race. I'm just trying to say that indeed we are all different, and we shouldn't be afraid to say it.

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
again, why? don't these 2 groups have unique physical and genetic traits that have been passed down for generations and generations?

[/ QUOTE ]

They do. Just not nearly as much as blacks and whites. Like, by a mile and a half.

This goes down more to societal perception than genetics. I know where you're going with this, but thanks to history and society, that's just the fact of life.

[Voltron87]

why is it unreasonable to say that a black ethnic gene pool might be different than the anglo saxon one (just examples, there are tons of different white gene pools and tons of different african ones)? there are white people with primarily black hair and pale skin (irish) and there are swedish people. obviously they have different traits. why can't one trait be strength or agility?

[Josh W]

I have a bunch of questions. Okay, that's a lie. I have one question.

What group of people is offended by this?

I honestly don't know.

At first I thought it was anti-white...Oh, white people are slow and athletic. We can't win with white people. White people are inferior.

Then, I thought maybe black people would be offended. Ooohhhh, you think black people are gifted, they don't have to work hard at this. You think black people don't put in the time in the weight room and on the practice field.

I saw an interview by the author of the book "Taboo" which discusses this very topic (on Anderson Cooper 360...)...races are different, but why are we so afraid to talk about it? He mentioned that there is scientific evidence to support that muscle tissue and lung tissue in people from West Africa are more designed for football. White people excel in weightlifting. East African's excel in long distance running, endurance contests.

And if we watch the Olympics, this is tough to disagree with.

Obviously, as somebody stated, AFA doesn't need more black athletes, they need BETTER ATHLETES. Didn't the Notre Dame coach a few years ago make a similar statement?

But who's the best white tailback in the NFL? Who's the best white cornerback in the NFL?

I live in a fairly white part of Los Angeles. When I go to the local 24 hour fitness, most of the people in there are black.

I think that black people place a higher emphasis on physical fitness and athleticism.

And if I'm a headcoach looking for better athletes, I'm going to look for people who place an emphasis athleticism.

I've rambled a lot here. But I'm still confused.

Who was this coach's statement supposedly offensive to? I really don't know.

[SammyKid11]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that black people place a higher emphasis on physical fitness and athleticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the point. Making inferences and generalizations can be a dangerous thing. The above quote is certainly not the only one in this thread, but the one I happened to see and respond to.

Because you see mostly black people at a gym located in a mostly white neighborhood, your inference is that black people care about physical fitness and athleticism more than white people do. This is kind of like saying, "I know hundreds of people and none of them are Asian...therefore, I do not believe that over 20% of the world's population is Asian. In my survey, 0% of the world is Asian." So the above type of assumption is especially faulty and very widespread among lots of people.

Now for actual facts...the most obese race in America? African-Americans. From that can we infer that African-Americans must care LESS about physical fitness and athleticism? Certainly it's a stronger case than the gym survey...however, once again - it's faulty. According to a study conducted by Professor of Sociology Theresa Martinez at the University of Utah, the primary REASON for the higher obesity rates of the African-American and Hispanic-American population is due to socio-economic status, not race. Minorities make up a large percentage of our country's lowest earners. Economoically-disadvantaged people eat cheaper foods. Cheaper foods are much higher in fat, on the whole, than more expensive foods.

So even an inference based on empirical evidence (African-Americans are the most obese in the nation) do not lead us to the proper conclusions about WHY.

Sure, there is some scientific evidence to support the idea that those from West Africa have a certain type of muscle tissue and are therefore genetically predisposed to being faster. But lots of African-Americans do not descend very directly or very purely (on a genetic level) from West Africa. There has to be more to it than that.

Personally, here's why I think statements like those made by Fisher DeBerry are problematic.

1) Yes, I think it's somewhat offensive to white athletes. Imagine if the CEO of a primarily-black corporation said, "man, white people tend to make better grades than black people -- I think that means they must be smarter overall...I wish this company could hire us some more white people." I think the African-American community would be a tad bit upset, and rightfully so.

2) Perhaps the REASON there are so many more African-American athletes in sports like football and basketball is BECAUSE the stereotype exists that tells African-Americans, "this is where you have the best chance to succeed. Here's an arena in which you're advantaged...so that's the arena you should pursue." Because of those persistent expectations, maybe greater emphasis is placed on raising great athletes in that community than the emphasis placed on raising great students. The problem with perpetuating those stereotypes is simply that very few people make it in professional athletics. Those that focus their efforts on athletics but do not either get a college degree or make it to the pros, especially those that come from economically-disadvantaged situations, often-times find themselves with very few opportunities in life once sports have come to an end for them. Comments like DeBerry's serve to perpetuate a potentially-debilitating stereotype.

3) Fisher DeBerry is the head coach of a military academy, funded by the taxpayers of the United States of America. In a nation that is supposed to be trying hard to end racial inequities and ease the tension of centuries worth of racial oppression, racially-charged comments from a man in DeBerry's position are simply unhelpful to the overall cause. Public apologies these days are so cheap that his means very little to me...he's a grown man, he knows what media interviews are like, and he made the statements anyway.

Are his comments "true" in the current makeup of college football? Yeah, sure they are. I'm not denying that black athletes currently hold most positions of speed in college football. So in that sense, what he said was true.

Is that the point? No, it's not. He gained nothing from his comments, and it cost him and the Air Force Academy a lot in the way of perception. I think on an admittedly small level, it also further racial tensions in this country, demeans athletes of other races, and serves to further pidgeon-hole African Americans into their already-accepted "good at sports" stereotype - thereby decreasing their likelihood to achieve in other avenues of life.

Anyway, that's what I think.

[daryn]

kneel before zod is correct, everyone else is pretty much wrong.

just the facts, ma'am

[SammyKid11]

Glad to see you're as sophisticated in real issues as you were in hijacking an Astros thread with Red Sox and Yankees crap. How'd Boston and NY end up doing, anyway?

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to see you're as sophisticated in real issues as you were in hijacking an Astros thread with Red Sox and Yankees crap. How'd Boston and NY end up doing, anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[Josh W]

I think everything you wrote is well thought out and valid, except for your response to my gym example (you went way apples and oranges there).

Josh

[SammyKid11]

I wasn't making a comparison to your gym example. I was merely illustrating the fallacy of low sample set...and the fallacy of assumed intentions. You make two bad assumptions in your gym example.

First, you assume that because at your gym (at the time you happen to be there) there happen to be a disproportionate number of African Americans, it must mean that African Americans work out in higher numbers nationally than do other Americans. Your sample set is so small that it would be LIKE saying, "I know hundreds of people and none of them are Asian, therefore I do not believe in Asian people."

And even IF that first faulty assumption were luckily (for you) true, you further assume that this demonstrates that African Americans place higher importance on physical fitness, when in fact it could simply mean that African Americans enjoy exercise more than other races, or that African Americans have more free time than other races, or that they feel a need to be in better shape because they work more manual labor jobs, or any number of other factors that could lead to them working out in higher percentages than other races (if that is even true).

Your assumption that A (you seeing more black people at your gym in a white neighborhood) means B (the African American community places a greater value on physical fitness) is simply a bad one.

[mason55]

Jesus.

It has been proven that as a population people of African descent have a higher concentration of fast twitch muscle fibers. On average their hemoglobin works better. It's just a fact.

Read " Taboo: why black athletes dominate sports and why we're afraid to talk about it. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002H6NY8/qid=1130408457/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5076478-9356144?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846)

[SammyKid11]

It's also been proven that near the end of our relationship, my ex-girlfriend put on weight. Doesn't mean that it was a good thing to bring up.

[ QUOTE ]
there are white people with primarily black hair and pale skin (irish) and there are swedish people. obviously they have different traits. why can't one trait be strength or agility?

[/ QUOTE ]

b/c it is politically incorrect to say so.

[David Sklansky]

What bothers me is that no one, not the coach nor any of the posters here, clarified the situation by noting that while the average speed of a black person is only very slightly faster than a white person, the nature of the normal distribution means that at the extreme tails, where elite athletes appear, the effect is exggerated far beyond what it is in the general populaion. (In other words while you might only be able to lay 6-5 that a random black guy can beat a random white guy, you might be able to lay 4-1 if there is no bet unless one of them breaks 9.5 for a hundred yards.)

[JTrout]

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me is that no one, not the coach nor any of the posters here, clarified the situation by noting that while the average speed of a black person is only very slightly faster than a white person, the nature of the normal distribution means that at the extreme tails, where elite athletes appear, the effect is exggerated far beyond what it is in the general populaion. (In other words while you might only be able to lay 6-5 that a random black guy can beat a random white guy, you might be able to lay 4-1 if there is no bet unless one of them breaks 9.5 for a hundred yards.)

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, that really bothered me, too. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[TomCollins]

That of course explains why there are no super smart women.

[CollinEstes]

[ QUOTE ]
It's also been proven that near the end of our relationship, my ex-girlfriend put on weight. Doesn't mean that it was a good thing to bring up.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nice.



Didn't Dusty Baker make some comments about how black and latin players can take heat (temp wise) better than white players? The double standard is if a white coach said the same thing people would be calling for his head. If Coach Willingham says that same comment do you think he loses his job.

You know Michael Irvin probably has said something along these lines before on ESPN and he wouldn't be fired, but Rush says one sterotype about black quarterbacks and he is gone.

[judgesmails]

I asked a somewhat similar question earlier in the thread. Along the lines of:

Suppose you attend a college football game and one team was 100% white and the other 100% black and that was the only information you had on the teams. Now you are offered an even odds wager for whatever amount you want on either team. Which team do you choose and how much do you bet?

(I did bet 4 units, my maximum football wager, on TCU vs AF as a pick 'em game last week, but I knew more about these teams than just the racial differences).

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't making a comparison to your gym example. I was merely illustrating the fallacy of low sample set...and the fallacy of assumed intentions. You make two bad assumptions in your gym example.

First, you assume that because at your gym (at the time you happen to be there) there happen to be a disproportionate number of African Americans, it must mean that African Americans work out in higher numbers nationally than do other Americans. Your sample set is so small that it would be LIKE saying, "I know hundreds of people and none of them are Asian, therefore I do not believe in Asian people."

And even IF that first faulty assumption were luckily (for you) true, you further assume that this demonstrates that African Americans place higher importance on physical fitness, when in fact it could simply mean that African Americans enjoy exercise more than other races, or that African Americans have more free time than other races, or that they feel a need to be in better shape because they work more manual labor jobs, or any number of other factors that could lead to them working out in higher percentages than other races (if that is even true).

Your assumption that A (you seeing more black people at your gym in a white neighborhood) means B (the African American community places a greater value on physical fitness) is simply a bad one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point B is spot on...there could be many reasons why they are there.

But your A is still apples and oranges.

See, in my example, I'm dealing with a fairly homogenous subset (my city), and you are too (your friends).

however, in my subset, I'm seeing something contradictory to my subset, whereas you are seeing something consistent with yours.

I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the important issues at hand, mind you. I'm just saying you picked a completely erroneous analogy to bring the point to light.

No biggy.

Josh

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me is that no one, not the coach nor any of the posters here, clarified the situation by noting that while the average speed of a black person is only very slightly faster than a white person, the nature of the normal distribution means that at the extreme tails, where elite athletes appear, the effect is exggerated far beyond what it is in the general populaion. (In other words while you might only be able to lay 6-5 that a random black guy can beat a random white guy, you might be able to lay 4-1 if there is no bet unless one of them breaks 9.5 for a hundred yards.)

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point, maybe it can save this guy's job. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I looked at the ratio in the tails for a 5% difference in the means, and it was about 3-1.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
What bothers me is that no one, not the coach nor any of the posters here, clarified the situation by noting that while the average speed of a black person is only very slightly faster than a white person, the nature of the normal distribution means that at the extreme tails, where elite athletes appear, the effect is exggerated far beyond what it is in the general populaion. (In other words while you might only be able to lay 6-5 that a random black guy can beat a random white guy, you might be able to lay 4-1 if there is no bet unless one of them breaks 9.5 for a hundred yards.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that should bother you more than national (and international) racial tensions, propagating stereotypes, breaking down barriers, etc.

I think being able to prioritize things well is something that indicates level of intelligence.

Josh

[TomCollins]

Rush didn't even make a stereotype. He simply said the only reason anyone thought McNabb was any good was because he was black, and if he was white, hed be thought of as an average quarterback at best.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

They do. Just not nearly as much as blacks and whites. Like, by a mile and a half.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you quantify this? Can you present quantitative evidence to back this up? It would not surprise me at all to find that careful picking and choosing of "white" and "black" ethnicities could contradict this. The concept of whiteness as a catch-all for all Europeans is pretty recent, I think.

PS. I think DeBerry's comments were unwise, but also basically what most people think is the truth and not particularly insensitive.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
Rush didn't even make a stereotype. He simply said the only reason anyone thought McNabb was any good was because he was black, and if he was white, hed be thought of as an average quarterback at best.

[/ QUOTE ]
Which is clearly dumber than what the AF guy said.

[fingokra]

That isn't what he said. He simply said the McNabb was overrated. He was overrated because the NFL/media wanted a black QB to hype. If he had been a white qb he would have never recieved the hype that he has. Probably some truth to it. Although McNabb has proven to be pretty good.

[lastchance]

[ QUOTE ]
That isn't what he said. He simply said the McNabb was overrated. He was overrated because the NFL/media wanted a black QB to hype. If he had been a white qb he would have never recieved the hype that he has. Probably some truth to it. Although McNabb has proven to be pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]
McNabb isn't an "average" QB by any stretch of the imagination. Rush said that McNabb was an average QB. He may be slightly overrated, but really, have you seen anyone slobbering over him like Brady (who deserves it), and Vick (who doesn't). And you know people slobber over Vick because he can run and make plays.

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, this country is terrified to have any honest public racial dialogue. We'd rather stick our heads in the sand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked this post so much, I stopped reading the thread at this point. I mean that in a good way.

[fingokra]

I agree McNabb is a well above average, but at the time of Rush's statement this was far more debateable.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to say this, I don't think he's been that good from the get-go," Limbaugh said. "I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. There is a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of this team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team

[/ QUOTE ]

link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1627887)

[ChipWrecked]

"....you don't see many minority athletes" at the Air Force Academy because?

You don't see many black Air Force command officers.

This coach isn't anything like the racist his bosses are.

[fingokra]

I don't see anything wrong with that blurb. I think considering his performance since that remark, that Rush was wrong; however it was a valid point for debate. He shouldn't have gotten fired and shunned for it.

No worse than any AA basketball player saying that they think Larry Bird was overrated because he was white. Oh wait that did happen. By the way this is also a valid point of debate, agree with it or not.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
That isn't what he said. He simply said the McNabb was overrated. He was overrated because the NFL/media wanted a black QB to hype. If he had been a white qb he would have never recieved the hype that he has. Probably some truth to it. Although McNabb has proven to be pretty good.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. McNabb is more arguably overrated now than then. Then, he had a WR corps that is barely in the NFL anymore and a nonexistant running game. Yet, he carried them to 3 straight NFC Championship games despite that.

2. The NFL had plenty of black QB's to hype at the time. McNair had just gone to a Super Bowl and was on one of the leagues perennial top teams. Duante Culpepper was on a team that just went 15-1 and had one of the leagues most glamorous offenses. The idea that they lacked or needed a QB to hype is ignorant, at best.

3. I love accusations that claim "the media" is doing something. If Rush (or anyone) wants to make that statement, that "the media" has a systematic agenda, then make direct accusations. List specific media members and cite specific instances. He didn't, and couldn't. That's why he justifiably got buried. That crap works on a radio show where you are supposed to incite and throw out baseless accusations. It does not fly when you are on a national media outlet supposedly giving objective analysis.

4. If he had been a white QB, he would have likely gotten MORE hype. Can you imagine a scrambling, rocket armed white QB that leads a totally talentless offense to the Conference Championship game 3 years in a row?? Jesus, look at the hype the white-idol Manning gets, and he has Hall of Famers surrounding him instead of Duce Staley, James Thrash and Todd Pinkston. And, oh by the way, he hasn't accomplished half of what McNabb has in the NFL.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
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That isn't what he said. He simply said the McNabb was overrated. He was overrated because the NFL/media wanted a black QB to hype. If he had been a white qb he would have never recieved the hype that he has. Probably some truth to it. Although McNabb has proven to be pretty good.

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1. McNabb is more arguably overrated now than then. Then, he had a WR corps that is barely in the NFL anymore and a nonexistant running game. Yet, he carried them to 3 straight NFC Championship games despite that.

2. The NFL had plenty of black QB's to hype at the time. McNair had just gone to a Super Bowl and was on one of the leagues perennial top teams. Duante Culpepper was on a team that just went 15-1 and had one of the leagues most glamorous offenses. The idea that they lacked or needed a QB to hype is ignorant, at best.

3. I love accusations that claim "the media" is doing something. If Rush (or anyone) wants to make that statement, that "the media" has a systematic agenda, then make direct accusations. List specific media members and cite specific instances. He didn't, and couldn't. That's why he justifiably got buried. That crap works on a radio show where you are supposed to incite and throw out baseless accusations. It does not fly when you are on a national media outlet supposedly giving objective analysis.

4. If he had been a white QB, he would have likely gotten MORE hype. Can you imagine a scrambling, rocket armed white QB that leads a totally talentless offense to the Conference Championship game 3 years in a row?? Jesus, look at the hype the white-idol Manning gets, and he has Hall of Famers surrounding him instead of Duce Staley, James Thrash and Todd Pinkston. And, oh by the way, he hasn't accomplished half of what McNabb has in the NFL.

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great post.

[JTrout]

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And, oh by the way, he hasn't accomplished half of what McNabb has in the NFL.


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lol. You can't be that stupid.

[JayLear]

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That isn't what he said. He simply said the McNabb was overrated. He was overrated because the NFL/media wanted a black QB to hype. If he had been a white qb he would have never recieved the hype that he has. Probably some truth to it. Although McNabb has proven to be pretty good.

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1. McNabb is more arguably overrated now than then. Then, he had a WR corps that is barely in the NFL anymore and a nonexistant running game. Yet, he carried them to 3 straight NFC Championship games despite that.

2. The NFL had plenty of black QB's to hype at the time. McNair had just gone to a Super Bowl and was on one of the leagues perennial top teams. Duante Culpepper was on a team that just went 15-1 and had one of the leagues most glamorous offenses. The idea that they lacked or needed a QB to hype is ignorant, at best.

3. I love accusations that claim "the media" is doing something. If Rush (or anyone) wants to make that statement, that "the media" has a systematic agenda, then make direct accusations. List specific media members and cite specific instances. He didn't, and couldn't. That's why he justifiably got buried. That crap works on a radio show where you are supposed to incite and throw out baseless accusations. It does not fly when you are on a national media outlet supposedly giving objective analysis.

4. If he had been a white QB, he would have likely gotten MORE hype. Can you imagine a scrambling, rocket armed white QB that leads a totally talentless offense to the Conference Championship game 3 years in a row?? Jesus, look at the hype the white-idol Manning gets, and he has Hall of Famers surrounding him instead of Duce Staley, James Thrash and Todd Pinkston. And, oh by the way, he hasn't accomplished half of what McNabb has in the NFL.

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great post.

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[fingokra]

perfectly in line with your MO

[Clarkmeister]

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perfectly in line with your MO

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The "point out someone is not only misstating the facts, but making little sense even with those misstated facts in his corner" MO?

Don't worry, I wouldn't try to respond either if I were you.

[Jack of Arcades]

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1. McNabb is more arguably overrated now than then. Then, he had a WR corps that is barely in the NFL anymore and a nonexistant running game. Yet, he carried them to 3 straight NFC Championship games despite that.

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I'd like to know in what years the Eagles had no running game. You mean 2003, where they ran for 2015 yards at 4.8 yards per carry? Or 2002, where they ran for 2220 yards at 4.5 yards per carry? Their worst season was *last year* (1639 yards at 4.5 ypc), but Brian Westbrook managed 703 yards receiving, mostly from short passes that are an extension of the Andy Reid running game.

Not that I disagree with your overall statement.

[ChicagoTroy]

This came up on a strength &amp; conditioning website I post on. One poster pointed out that, of the top 200 sprinters in the world, 4 are white. There's one Asian.

The guy could have put it a little more delicately, but the truthfulness of his statement can't be argued. The stopwatch isn't racist.

[cdxx]

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This came up on a strength &amp; conditioning website I post on. One poster pointed out that, of the top 200 sprinters in the world, 4 are white. There's one Asian.

The guy could have put it a little more delicately, but the truthfulness of his statement can't be argued. The stopwatch isn't racist.

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is it a white watch?

[fingokra]

No more along the lines of

Trying to present your opinion as fact and changing the subject when confronted with facts that prove you opinion wrong. All of this while maintaining a holy than thou attitude that assumes your vast superiority and the utter stupidity of all those around you based soley on the vigor in which you state your ill-conceived point. Then throw in a Manning insult.

[imported_anacardo]

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he had been a white QB, he would have likely gotten MORE hype. Can you imagine a scrambling, rocket armed white QB that leads a totally talentless offense to the Conference Championship game 3 years in a row??

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Bet he'd look a little like John Elway. Hey, that guy's pretty popular.

[Clarkmeister]

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No more along the lines of

Trying to present your opinion as fact

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I thought that was what you were doing.

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and changing the subject when confronted with facts that prove you opinion wrong.

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I hadn't previously posted in this thread. So I'd love to know how my opinion had been proven wrong when I hadn't posted my opinion or been involved in any subject which might need changing.

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All of this while maintaining a holy than thou attitude that assumes your vast superiority and the utter stupidity of all those around you

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Which is easy to do in response to one whose whole argument is that "the media", some nebulous uniform entity, has some sort of agenda - all without substantiation of any type of course.

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based soley on the vigor in which you state your ill-conceived point. Then throw in a Manning insult.

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Feel free to state how it was ill conceived.

Manning insults will work until he wins a title. And considering McNabb has been to twice the conference championship games and infinitely more super bowls, there's not much Manning fans can do except whine that I'm picking on him. Even Marino got to a super bowl. Manning can't even do that with his stellar performances vs NE the last two years. 4 picks in one game and 3 points in the next. Outstanding.

[pudley4]

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No more along the lines of

Trying to present your opinion as fact

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I thought that was what you were doing.

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and changing the subject when confronted with facts that prove you opinion wrong.

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I hadn't previously posted in this thread. So I'd love to know how my opinion had been proven wrong when I hadn't posted my opinion or been involved in any subject which might need changing.

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All of this while maintaining a holy than thou attitude that assumes your vast superiority and the utter stupidity of all those around you

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Which is easy to do in response to one whose whole argument is that "the media", some nebulous uniform entity, has some sort of agenda - all without substantiation of any type of course.

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based soley on the vigor in which you state your ill-conceived point. Then throw in a Manning insult.

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Feel free to state how it was ill conceived.

Manning insults will work until he wins a title. And considering McNabb has been to twice the conference championship games and infinitely more super bowls, there's not much Manning fans can do except whine that I'm picking on him. Even Marino got to a super bowl. Manning can't even do that with his stellar performances vs NE the last two years. 4 picks in one game and 3 points in the next. Outstanding.

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I really like Tony Dungy, and hope that he wins a Super Bowl.

But I love seeing the (well deserved) Peyton-bashing that Clark does.

I'm torn...

[TheRover]

I don't understand why everyone hates Peyton Manning. It makes no sense.

[BadBoyBenny]

Hi

[masse75]

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I see absolutely nothing wrong with these comments. The man speaks the truth.

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If you're gonna gimmick this, at least get it right. DeBerry said nothing about "breeding" slaves to get big athletic blacks. Jimmy the Greek did.

Worst Gimmick Ever.

[Taraz]

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Jesus.

It has been proven that as a population people of African descent have a higher concentration of fast twitch muscle fibers. On average their hemoglobin works better. It's just a fact.

Read " Taboo: why black athletes dominate sports and why we're afraid to talk about it. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0002H6NY8/qid=1130408457/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-5076478-9356144?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846)

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Has anybody else actually read this book? It's terrible! The author jumps to so many conclusions and really reaches with most of his arguments. There is some interesting stuff in the book, but it doesn't prove what people think it proves. I can get specific if anyobody cares.

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I looked at the ratio in the tails for a 5% difference in the means, and it was about 3-1.

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Are you speaking English?

[imported_anacardo]

I read and enjoyed it. I'd love to hear your counter-argument, though, since I didn't read with too critical an eye.

[Taraz]

One of the several issues I have with the book is that the author talks about how it's the athletes with "West African" ancestry that are dominating sprinting but then he gives no explanation of why not a single person from West Africa has won anything. Not to mention the fact that he doesn't account for the fact that the people he says are of West African descent all have varying amounts of West African ancestry. Some of them are half black for example.

And if it's true, as he claims, that blacks with West African Ancestry have the muscle fibers to jump the best, why don't they dominate the jumping events? The high jump, triple jump, and long jump aren't events that are dominated by black people.

Another problem I have is that he claims that he's proven that "the black athlete" is dominating sports as if all black people share a common gene pool. He himself goes on for pages about how the dominant endurance runners are all from a single village in East Africa. This seems to suggest that it isn't "the black athlete" but rather runners from village X that are the amazing ones. And doesn't this really show that race is a bad indicator of genetic makeup? One group of black people is good at endurance but not sprinting and another group is the opposite. That seems contradictory if we can lump them all into the "black" category.

I'm just not convinced. He basically tells us what we already know: blacks dominate sports. What if I told you that poor people make the best athletes? That would be true since the people that dominate basketball and football disproportionately grew up poor. I'm not saying black people aren't the best athletes, I'm just saying that it's very very far from clear that it's because of genetics.