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lautzutao

10-26-2005, 04:48 PM

My first hand dealt at the table...I haven't seen anything unusual from anyone.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.fourthnut.com/cgi-bin/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP2 raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets and plans on folding if raised again???

Do I just hate money making this bet?

baronzeus

10-26-2005, 04:52 PM

didnt you bet the flop with the intention of 3betting?

3bet flop, bet turn, fold if raised.

WalkAmongUs

10-26-2005, 04:55 PM

I'd fold this to an MP2 raise. Its too much of a trap hand. Since you decided to continue, 3bet the flop. If he caps I think you could probably assume you are behind and think about folding safely.

Reqtech

10-26-2005, 04:58 PM

I don't understand. Why call the flop raise if you are planning on donking the turn?

lautzutao

10-26-2005, 05:03 PM

Because I suck at poker /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

No idea why I didn't 3-bet this flop, and don't know what compels me to now donk this turn.

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No idea why I didn't 3-bet this flop

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe because your hand isn't very strong against a typical player who raised preflop and now raised your flop bet on a KQx board?

10-26-2005, 05:08 PM

Hey Lautzu,

I've been reading Theory of Poker and I think I'm starting to get a better understanding of when to 3-bet and when to stop and go. Essentially, you stop and go when you can't beat the made hands villain is representing, but you can beat a semi-bluff, and the turn card comes a blank. So I guess a good example might be if you held QJ here instead of KJ.

Here, though, you very possibly can beat the made hand the villain is representing, so you should 3-bet. The presence of SB only strengthens the argument for 3-betting, because they way he is playing seems to indicate a queen or spades to me.

10-26-2005, 05:09 PM

Three-bet. Much better. Or CR.

Edit: Need coffee. Ignore rest.

Nick C

10-26-2005, 05:11 PM

MP2 could have AQ or a hand like A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif (or even ATo or TT), but I think you'll be behind more often.

The turn bet-fold line is potentially a cheaper way to get away from your hand than turn and river check-calls would be (and also doesn't risk giving a free card), but a 2/4 unknown is going to pop your turn stop-n-go with AQ out of annoyance or optimism or whatnot some of the time, so the play is not without its risks.

For his part, SB quite possibly has a good draw. There's also some chance he's slowplaying and is getting ready to checkraise. (Then again, he could just have a marginal hand he's getting set to dump.)

Personally, I would have folded preflop.

Redd

10-26-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The turn bet-fold line is potentially a cheaper way to get away from your hand than turn and river check-calls would be (and also doesn't risk giving a free card), but a 2/4 unknown is going to pop your turn stop-n-go with AQ out of annoyance or optimism or whatnot some of the time, so the play is not without its risks.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO he'll call with AK a nontrivial amount of the time too.

Nick C

10-26-2005, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The turn bet-fold line is potentially a cheaper way to get away from your hand than turn and river check-calls would be (and also doesn't risk giving a free card), but a 2/4 unknown is going to pop your turn stop-n-go with AQ out of annoyance or optimism or whatnot some of the time, so the play is not without its risks.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO he'll call with AK a nontrivial amount of the time too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I agree.

10-26-2005, 05:33 PM

truly grunching--don't bother reading!

If you're leading the turn, why not 3-bet the flop? Why the stop&go?

Given a pf & flop raise from an uknown, villain's range of hands may be AA-QQ,AK,KQ (you're behind). JJ,AQ,AJ,AT,KJ (your ahead). Is this WA/WB? I guess bet/fold is good turn action. Can't wait to see other responses.

shadow29

10-26-2005, 05:43 PM

Hi lautzutao:

(I'll get to your session review eventually, I promise.)

I firmly believe that you need to bet/3-bet this flop for a number of reasons.

The pot is getting quite large. Waiting for a "safe" turn card to c/r or whatever might be disastrous, as MP2 could quite likely have a hand like A/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif or something along those lines, in which case he is very likely to check behind on the turn.

You have a likely large equity edge in a large pot. I like to push my edges in large pots, maximizing my potential.

Furthermore, a 3-bet helps define your hand. If MP2 caps, we're going to re-evaluate on the turn, with a possibility of check/folding. 2/4 players are quite straight-forward in general; they will tell you when they have a bad hand, when they have a good hand, and when they have a great hand. This phenomenon is what makes the Party 2/4 game so profitable.

Additionally, we need to consider the presence of the SB in this hand. He is likely drawing; all he has done is call and check/call. Thus (according to the 2/4 phenomenon presented above), he has outs to beat us, but is not currently ahead in equity. I like to put bets in when I'm ahead and fold when I'm behind-- everyone should too. It's time to push our edge and 3-bet.

For the turn play, SB will check to you on a blank. You should bet if MP2 does not cap. You are likely ahead and therefore bets that go into the pot win you money. If MP2 caps on the flop, I start thinking about pot odds and how much it is going to cost me to get to showdown. Don't forget about SB when evaluating this situation, either.

What I'm trying to say with this post is that there are two very important things to consider when playing cards: your equity and your opponents' equity. Conglomerate these two factors and your play will improve.

McGahee

10-26-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No idea why I didn't 3-bet this flop

[/ QUOTE ]
maybe because your hand isn't very strong against a typical player who raised preflop and now raised your flop bet on a KQx board?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think 3-betting this flop kinda sucks.

Nick C

10-26-2005, 05:57 PM

Here are some likely hands, once MP2 raises the flop:

AA = 6 combos
KK = 1 combo
QQ = 3 combos
AK = 8 combos
KQ = 6 combos

AQ = 12 combos
A /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif = 1 combo

MP2 will have weaker hands such as AJo/ATo and 99 sometimes, but you have reason to feel uncomfortable, once he raises the flop.

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 06:08 PM

so it's worse than 2:1 (2:1 if he raises AQ almost every time, which is optimistic) against us that he has the best hand.

the worst part is that he may slow down with AA/AK out of fear of KQ, and we're stuck betting the worst hand on the turn and river.

Reqtech

10-26-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
so it's worse than 2:1 (2:1 if he raises AQ almost every time, which is optimistic) against us that he has the best hand.

the worst part is that he may slow down with AA/AK out of fear of KQ, and we're stuck betting the worst hand on the turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what's your line here? check call the turn and river? Not sure what you're getting at here.

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 06:14 PM

c/r flop ("you check raise too much"), if 3-bet call and fold turn unless we hit T, J, or K. otherwise continue to bet. fold to turn raise if he calls flop and pops turn.

ArturiusX

10-26-2005, 06:27 PM

MP2 raise doesn't scare me. 3-bet. If capped, see a showdown. If called, bet the turn. Money in pot doesn't need a long post, just do it!

Nick C

10-26-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop ("you check raise too much"), if 3-bet call and fold turn unless we hit T, J, or K. otherwise continue to bet. fold to turn raise if he calls flop and pops turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line.

Minor quibble: I wouldn't be easy to drive out on the turn if, say, the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif fell.

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop ("you check raise too much"), if 3-bet call and fold turn unless we hit T, J, or K. otherwise continue to bet. fold to turn raise if he calls flop and pops turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line.

Minor quibble: I wouldn't be easy to drive out on the turn if, say, the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif fell.

[/ QUOTE ]
true that.

"MP2's flop raise doesn't scare me."

it should

10-26-2005, 06:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop ("you check raise too much"), if 3-bet call and fold turn unless we hit T, J, or K. otherwise continue to bet. fold to turn raise if he calls flop and pops turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is in response to the hands you put him on after he raised our flop bet?

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 06:44 PM

Nick C

10-26-2005, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop ("you check raise too much"), if 3-bet call and fold turn unless we hit T, J, or K. otherwise continue to bet. fold to turn raise if he calls flop and pops turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is in response to the hands you put him on after he raised our flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most 2/4 players, after raising preflop, will (auto)-bet the flop with a wider range of hands than they'll raise with if they're led into.

So, if we go for a checkraise, it's not until we get 3-bet that we really start worrying. (And, actually, I think that a 3-bet from Villain in response to a checkraise shows more strength than a simple raise from Villain would, though Villain's flop raise in the actual hand does concern me.)

10-26-2005, 07:08 PM

*grunch*
I play exactly the same.

Assuming the raiser is capable of trying for a free card.

10-26-2005, 07:27 PM

I notice that only a couple responses fold the flop. I think KJo is a serious problem in a 3-way, raised pot. Not to mention your going to have to play a trap hand from the worst position on all streets. Domination is a big threat here, no? Poor position is a big threat, no? Why not FOLD !?!

10-26-2005, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r flop ("you check raise too much"), if 3-bet call and fold turn unless we hit T, J, or K. otherwise continue to bet. fold to turn raise if he calls flop and pops turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is in response to the hands you put him on after he raised our flop bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
????

are you asking if i am changing my mind because i see that he happened to raise the flop bet? funny, no. just show me preflop and ask me what to do at hero's first flop action. i say check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not suggesting that you changed your mind, but rather needed a clarification on why we c/r. Is it because if we bet with the intention of 3-betting and it gets capped, we're dead in the water?

milesdyson

10-26-2005, 07:42 PM

if i did bet this flop (which i wouldn't), i wouldn't 3-bet, because we're usually over a 2:1 dog against the raiser. so i want him to bet his bad hands here because he raised preflop and everyone checked to him. i want him to get bets in there with not only his good hands but also 99, TT, JJ, AJ, AQ, etc. either way we go there's one player between us and the preflop raiser, so betting doesn't give us a chance to trap any more players for bets (regardless, when we "trap" players by betting, it's when we get RAISED on the flop, which is usually when we already have the worst hand). so i choose to check and raise. now if he just calls, i like my chances, i had a chance to trap the same amount of players, and i feel that i get about the same information from him if he 3-bets that i do if i bet/3-bet and he caps. i also think bet/3-betting scares AA/AK into calling down, too, so we'll just be stuck leading into him with the loser. i feel that he'll 3-bet our check raise with these (which is good for the "information" part of this argument).

10-26-2005, 07:56 PM

Thanks Lautz,
I do exactly the same and have been wondering myself if there was a better line.

The three lines so far are all based on information.

1.(Shadow, BaronZeus, Arturius) 3-bet the flop and he'll tell you how strong he is if he caps the flop. 
2.(Miles) I already know he has some strength. I'll check-raise the flop and only have to call a 3bet if he's got strength. Re-evaluate on the turn
3. (Your OP and me) We don't know if he has strength. Call the raise and find out for sure by donking the turn.

I don't know at this point which one is better. All of them have pros and cons.

Line 1.
- You are costing yourself 2BB (4sb) on the flop to find out he has strength (even though he raised preflop and the flop has 2 painted cards).
- When you bet the turn after he calls your 3bet, there's no gaurantees he's not going to pop you then aswell (I certainly would with the best hand).
- He may also cap the flop with FD and still check the turn through.
- You do get the most money in, if you have the best hand.

Line 2.
- You do lose the least when behind. Which is a reasonable assumption considering villian has done nothing but show strength.
- You get the opportunity to knock people out on the flop.
- You can get to showdown cheaply if you wish.
- (If you're going to play scared when you flop top pair, I think you should fold to the unknowns preflop raise or go into call down mode str8 away).

Line 3.
- You prevent the free card play but may get bluffed off the best hand on the turn.
- If that's the case, that he's prepared to raise the turn with a weak hand, more power to him.
- You find out his hand strength with a greater degree of certainty on the BB street.
- If an unfavourable card falls on the turn, you've seen it cheaply.

I know Shadow advocates option one, but what he said about 2\4 players being straight forward only strengthens the argument for option 3. A straight forward villian can still cap the flop with a draw. He can't raise the turn, if he does, he's got the best hand or he's not straightforward.

I still can't see why either of the other two lines are any better.

I'm really interested in comments.

baronzeus

10-26-2005, 08:13 PM

FWIW, i dont know if i like the initial flop bet if you dont 3bet.

10-26-2005, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, i dont know if i like the initial flop bet if you dont 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you don't 3bet.
Do you c\c or c\r?

EDIT: There's a lot of factors that make this hand unique.
- Hero is in the BB.
- The raise came from late.
- Reverse domination possibilities.
- Increasing pot size.

I'm trying to find a line for Hero, when hero flops top pair OOP, when there is a late PFR.

Is it just dependant on villian?