Illustrative hand. What do we want here?

[shaniac]

It's post break $109 afternoon rebuy. Blinds are 100/200 and it's the hand right after I acquired a monster 23K stack and the chip lead.

Spoony135 pushes allin utg. I'm UTG +2 with AK and let's just say that for all intents and purposes, I'm 100% sure that AK is good.

Here are the stack sizes at the table.

Seat 2: jjjooo (13008 in chips)
Seat 3: lasbas (2944 in chips)
Seat 4: mike14 (14040 in chips) sb
Seat 5: soltia (8635 in chips) bb
Seat 6: Spoony135 (4550 in chips) utg
Seat 7: kslukeok (7625 in chips)
Seat 8: shaniac (23202 in chips)
Seat 9: The Shrike (6660 in chips)

So what's my line? Do I re-raise allin or call? If I call am I planning on dumping AK if one of the 13-14K stacks pushes allin behind me?

If I go allin, what do you figure the calling ranges are for the big stacks? How about the shortstacks?

[People_Mover]

I don't want to see a flop against more than just UTG with AK. Raise to maybe 10K?? Actually I'm not that sure. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[phage]

If you raise to 10K and one of the other big stacks goes all-in aren't you going to call the bet? If so wouldn't an all-in accomplish the same thing?

[Exitonly]

I like a call, because it'll give those 13k stacks the idea that they might have some fold equity over you.. i wouldn't be surpsied if they push w/ TT+,AQs+..

If you push, i'd say big stacks call you with QQ+, AKo+.. and short stacks call with TT+AQs+.

So if what i just said is true, then by just calling you get the big stacks in, with the short stacks range. which would be nice.

[MrMoo]

I push.

Let's use the 14k stack because he's the biggest. If you flat call and the big stack pushes, there will be 29290 in the pot and it will be 6415 for you to call. Giving you a little above 4.5-1. Even if you narrow down his range completely to AA or KK, it's about 80-18 or about 4-1.

I think the calling range here is dependent on your previous play. I'd guess QQ+ considering you just got the bigstack and probably haven't been bullying too much yet.

I should note that my line assumes you only want to play with UTG and not bring in the big stacks and race against TT, JJ, etc.

[Lloyd]

What range of hands do you think the "table" would put UTG on? He's raising way too much here. Is it a trap with a big hand or something like a middle pair that he's afraid to play poker with? You're saying AK is good. To me, AK is only "good" if I'm up against Ax. Otherwise, AK is "fine" or "alright" or in "decent shape". But "good" implies you're a favorite.

If the table gives him credit for a decent hand, then they've got to give you credit for an even better hand (although probably not AA/KK). But they could put you on something like QQ-TT, AK. Even though you've got the big stack I don't think you risk half your chips (if you push) with something less.

So if you push and we put you on QQ-TT, AK and put him on something like AA-88, AK-AJ then the 14k stack would be getting 1.35 to 1 on their money needing 42% pot equity just to break even. So to make it worthwhile and risk their entire tournament I think they call with AA-QQ, maybe JJ. This all changes if UTG's range changes but I think it's a decent range.

Now, if you just call I would open up your range to include AA-99, AK. Maybe you'd call with AQ but UTG+1 I'm thinking no. This certainly opens up the door for the SB to play JJ, AK, and maybe even TT or AQs. I only think they would push with AA-QQ, AK (just wild guesses but that's all we have to go on). If they push, you are a 3 to 1 dog getting 2.5 to 1 odds so a fold would be appropriate with those ranges. Of course, if they don't push it doesn't necessarily mean they don't have AA/KK as they could be trapping. But I think it's less likely that they do, so if you call and they call you can probably narrow the range to QQ-TT, AK, maybe AQ. And if you don't make a pair on the flop and they push I think you can give them credit for one of the pairs and fold barring odds with some type of draw.

As for the shortstacks, they probably have a bigger range than the big stacks but I still think they fold unless they've got a good hand like AA-QQ, AK.

I think I like the re-raise although I don't think it's necessarily that much better than calling.

[Hotrod0823]

What do you accomplish by RR to less than all in? If you raise to 10k and the 14K stack pushes are you folding for that last 4k into a 28k pot?

I think the only RR is allin and thats what I would to to isolate and get HU with UTG.

IF you just call the 4.5K and a 14K stack pushes you would be calling 10K into a 23K pot so you will be calling getting 2.5:1 right?

Why not push and put the Shorter stacks to the test?

I don't see how you aren't calling a push from a 14k stack or a 6-8k stack IF you JUST call the initial push from UTG.

If you push I think the SS are in with as weak as 77+, and AQ/AK. The bigger stacks need TT+, maybe AQx, AQs and the AKx/s.

That being said the SS may take your push as a sign of weakness and/or (big stack aggression) and be willing to face a coin flip with any PP and a chance to double+ their stack. They may see your range as pretty large here and be willing to take a shot.

[Lloyd]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's use the 14k stack because he's the biggest. If you flat call and the big stack pushes, there will be 29290 in the pot and it will be 6415 for you to call. Giving you a little above 4.5-1.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your numbers are different then mine. If Shane calls, the pot is:

SB 100
BB 200
UTG push 4550
Shane call 4550
SB push 13940

Total pot 23,340
Costs Shane 9,490

Shane's getting 2.5 to 1

[MrMoo]

Good catch. I used another players stack (7625). My bad.

[locutus2002]

Hero pushes.

Villain's range for calling is JJ++,AK; the small stacks might go lower but so what.

If another villain calls, Hero is about 40% in the side pot and 33% in the center pot. For EV-- ~ 10% of the side pot which in the worst case is ~T900. Almost nothing.

How frequently does villain call?

Hero has AK leaving villain with:
TT - 6 ways
JJ - 6 ways
QQ - 6 ways
KK - 3 ways
AA -3 ways
AK - 9 ways

33 ways subtract UTG's hand -1 = 32 hands for villain. 5 possible villains = 5x32 =160/1326 possible hands ~12% of the time a single villain out of the 5 will call you with jj++,ak and you will be -EV 10% of the sidepot.

The other 88% of the time they will all fold and you will be a favorite against UTG.

If hero just calls he may be giving FE to a wide range of more speculative hands that can call and win if hero whifs the flop. It's much easier to push.

[shaniac]

Does pushing allin get some hands (like JJ and TT) to fold that we don't want in there? It's an online tournament, where no one ever folds anything that resembles a hand, so the issue is kind of moot.

In a live tournament, playing proportionately deep and against good players, I would excpect the big stacks to be folding QQ a fairly large amount of the time.

Anyway, I pushed. SB with 14K went into the tank and eventually called with QQ. Utg had AT (there you go, Lloyd re: "To me, AK is only "good" if I'm up against Ax."). I lost the pot.

I think the consensus is that I'm not folding to a push after calling, so I figure pushing allin preflop turns out to be the best play.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the consensus is that I'm not folding to a push after calling, so I figure pushing allin preflop turns out to be the best play.


[/ QUOTE ]


If you're going to call anyway, wouldn't you want to let them come in with worse hands? If you push, they're definitely only coming along with QQ+, AKo/Aks, but if you just call, they'll come along with TT+, and maybe AQs.

Or maybe it's best to scare away the pairs.

Dunno.

[shaniac]

That's the issue I guess...I'm not dying for a confronation vs. TT and one of the big stacks. I don't particularly mind one, but at the end of the day, I'd always prefer they make the tough decision with JJ (or even QQ) than I. After making the play, I had some doubts, but I do think it's correct looking back. Just one of the bummers of having to act in early position against an allin. I think it's going to be tough to avoid an allin vs SB here, not matter what I do, actually.

Fwiw, I think I push AA and KK some fair % of the time, too, in these spots.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
If I call am I planning on dumping AK if one of the 13-14K stacks pushes allin behind me?


[/ QUOTE ]

there's gonna be ~14k in dead money and you'll have to call ~9.5k if the biggest stack pushes. it's an unfortunate spot to be in, but you have odds to call against KK and JJ (i think).

i think i would just push because if you get called by a hand like 99, you're not going to get paid off if you flop a pair but you are going to moved off the flop if you don't. i'd prefer to be all-in.

[adanthar]

Tough one. I'd just do what I normally do with every hand I play here and call. That lets me get out of a really weird situation like a repush/call behind (also, keep in mind that if AK is 'good', an out is missing).

95% of the time, I'm calling a push behind.

(edit: this assumes nobody's gonna overcall 99. If they are bad enough to do that sometimes, a push is better.)

[gergery]

Another good alternative here is to raise to 9k.

This is identical to pushing all in immediately except that the weird bet amount looks more like an AA/KK that wants to be called, and hence you are more likely to generate folds from pocket pairs (which you want).

-g

[kuro]

I don't think it matters that much between calling and pushing.

I probably push because if another big stack calls I don't want them getting off of their pocket pair when an ace flops or pushing into me on a missed flop and stoping me from seeing the turn/river.

If you call preflop and both big stacks push, it's still hard to fold because of the pot odds and the fact that even if you loose you have a very decent sized stack.