Learning... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

ggbman

10-26-2005, 02:21 PM

This post is inspried primarily by the 452 post thread about whether not BK should hire Tommy Angelo. Every time Tommy's name comes up in any thread, it gets hijacked because someone thinks he doesn't deserve the credit he gets as poker player and that their 2 year track record of making more money than him means they have nothing to learn. For the vets on this board, what i am going to say is nothing new to you, so it obviously doesnt apply in your cases.

The people who become the best poker players always want to learn. They can learn things very quickly from better players, and they can learn stuff from players worse than them. Someone came up with a good example of this in HUSH a while ago. If there are 1000 things that make you a perfect player, and you have 850 of them, you can still learn different things from someone who only does 700 of the 1000 things correctly. In the specific case of Tommy A., i think some of his suggestions reagrding hand selctin from the blinds and not raising AK preflop would hurt my earn. I also 100% positive that i could learn an incredibly amount from him in always playing my A game, adjusting to table conditions, etc...

My main point is that it doesnt matter if you think you are better than someone, you can still learn from them. Although it's slightly amusing having people come in and whip out their E-Dick only to have Andyfox, El Diablo and come company tell them they are wrong, i just think there is a bit too much on these boards. Anyway, as is obvious by now, my point here is always try to learn and have respect for people, especially people who have being doing this a while. Making more money than Tommy when you play 10x as many hands as him is not all that impressive. PLaying poker for 13 years professionally, changing with the times, and being a guy who still wants to learn, that is impressive.

10-26-2005, 02:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If there are 1000 things that make you a perfect player, and you have 850 of them, you can still learn different things from someone who only does 700 of the 1000 things correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6857/bimo3wv.jpg

bicyclekick

10-26-2005, 02:33 PM

If anything the lesser player keeps you fresh cause they keep asking questions and you have to think about stuff and try to explain it to them and if they're a good learner they'll ask follow up questions that take it even further.

Complacency is bad.

asofel

10-26-2005, 02:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If anything the lesser player keeps you fresh cause they keep asking questions and you have to think about stuff and try to explain it to them and if they're a good learner they'll ask follow up questions that take it even further.

Complacency is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very true. I don't play as high as some of my friends, but as soon as we get onto a pool table things change. While I know more than they do, the questions they put to me, and the explanation I'm forced to give for why a certain shot is better than another, has always given something back to me as well. Great point BK.

Danenania

10-26-2005, 02:50 PM

Well said.

JAA

10-26-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This post is inspried primarily by the 452 post thread about whether not BK should hire Tommy Angelo. Every time Tommy's name comes up in any thread, it gets hijacked because someone thinks he doesn't deserve the credit he gets as poker player and that their 2 year track record of making more money than him means they have nothing to learn. For the vets on this board, what i am going to say is nothing new to you, so it obviously doesnt apply in your cases.

The people who become the best poker players always want to learn. They can learn things very quickly from better players, and they can learn stuff from players worse than them. Someone came up with a good example of this in HUSH a while ago. If there are 1000 things that make you a perfect player, and you have 850 of them, you can still learn different things from someone who only does 700 of the 1000 things correctly. In the specific case of Tommy A., i think some of his suggestions reagrding hand selctin from the blinds and not raising AK preflop would hurt my earn. I also 100% positive that i could learn an incredibly amount from him in always playing my A game, adjusting to table conditions, etc...

My main point is that it doesnt matter if you think you are better than someone, you can still learn from them. Although it's slightly amusing having people come in and whip out their E-Dick only to have Andyfox, El Diablo and come company tell them they are wrong, i just think there is a bit too much on these boards. Anyway, as is obvious by now, my point here is always try to learn and have respect for people, especially people who have being doing this a while. Making more money than Tommy when you play 10x as many hands as him is not all that impressive. PLaying poker for 13 years professionally, changing with the times, and being a guy who still wants to learn, that is impressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I refuse to believe you are only a Freshman in college. Nice post.

- Jags

MaxPower

10-26-2005, 03:00 PM

You are wise beyond your years.

This is why I don't feel bad about making strategy post on 2+2 even though I am mediocre at poker.

worm33

10-26-2005, 03:01 PM

Good post...This is the downfall of most good live players. They will never become more than good live players because they think since they can beat an easy game, they dont need to learn anymore. Especialy when that game is the biggest in the room (canterbury)

stoxtrader

10-26-2005, 03:02 PM

group hug everyone?

<font color="white"> awwww shucks. I liked it too. </font>

</font>

bicyclekick

10-26-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Good post...This is the downfall of most good live players. They will never become more than good live players because they think since they can beat an easy game, they dont need to learn anymore. Especialy when that game is the biggest in the room (canterbury)

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo. Those guys are so funny. They all wonder why they can't win online...well duh...it's cause the canterbury 30/60 game is freaking ez and the online games are wayyyyyyyy harder in general.

Subfallen

10-26-2005, 03:10 PM

Lucid thinking ggb, wtg.

jason_t

10-26-2005, 04:17 PM

Very often when I read your posts I am incredulous that you're only a freshman in college. Your posts shine with a level of maturity and wisdom that is far too uncommon amongst your peers.

Nice post, again.

mplspoker

10-26-2005, 04:24 PM

I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

Ulysses

10-26-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe some of us who beat tough games online and have also PLAYED a lot with Tommy LIVE might be better qualified to judge these things than you.... just some food for thought...

10-26-2005, 04:38 PM

you're exactly right man. no one is perfect, and everyone here can learn something from everyone else, myself included. well said, bro.

J.A.Sucker

10-26-2005, 04:50 PM

You must like pushing on a rope.

DcifrThs

10-26-2005, 04:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

here's some food for thought for you...your probably going to hate this, but maybe all the requests to ban you from high quality posters i get should tell you that you are more likely to be wrong and annoying than you are to be correct and tolerable.

Barron

mplspoker

10-26-2005, 05:12 PM

Maybe....Just stating my opinion.

SA125

10-26-2005, 05:35 PM

I just came off a live losing session where I got all my good hands cracked by longshots. That's nothing new to all of us who play poker everyday.

What got me was my response to my last beat. I stood up, said "Motherf******. Nice hand so and so", picked up my chips and cashed out. It was only a 21BB loss and I shook hands before leaving. No ranting and running for the door stuff. No big loss.

Looking back on the session, in addition to the bad beats, I went on tilt one hand and spewed, and should have played one other hand stronger but got pushed off my hand.

So I played less than optimal and topped it off by momentarily losing my cool. There's been times I ranted here at the desktop and played the fool for the forum, but I rarely lose my cool publicly and exhibit the type of behavior that makes me look stupid and like a novice to poker.

That just reminded me of the Tommy post where mplspoker keeps insisting we defend him because he doesn't play the real high limits, etc. I don't even know Tommy. I'm just talking about trying to improve and how the stuff he writes and the demeanor and views he talks about can add to that. As much as someone else's views might.

He may not have made a fortune live or online, or play 300-600 regularly, but does that mean he can't, or a guy like him, have a positive effect on your emotional state and how it can effect you when playing lots of poker? In how you play, conduct yourself and remember to understand the nature of it?

He didn't pick tiltfree.com as the name for nothing.

PokerBob

10-26-2005, 05:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
cause the canterbury 30/60 game is freaking ez and the online games are wayyyyyyyy harder in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exhibit A: PokerBob

PokerBob

10-26-2005, 05:45 PM

awesome

PokerBob

10-26-2005, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

this is why i play live poker more.

ggbman

10-26-2005, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get why you keep stirring this up. There have been countless posters who are much better than you (Schneids, BK, El D, Andyfox, JAA, Mike L, and so on) who are telling you that Tommy is a formidable force at the table. Why you care so much to put down someone who you have never met/played with is waay beyond me. He has the respect of many people, i dont think he is sitting up crying because he doesnt have yours.

Now that your stance on this is 100% clear, is it neccesary to polute every thread with this kinda stuff?

jason_t

10-26-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

Suggestion: stop replying to this slightly sophisticated troll.

DcifrThs

10-26-2005, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe....Just always defending my opinion regardless of the evidence presented contrary to it or the rediculousness or lack of logic my opinion embodies.

[/ QUOTE ]
FYP

Barron

Justin A

10-27-2005, 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well we have one respected poster who says he's played with you and that you suck even in easy live games...

mplspoker

10-27-2005, 06:38 AM

Your right.... I suck at poker and business, but somehow i've found a way to survive.....

jason_t

10-27-2005, 06:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Your right.... I suck at poker and business, but somehow i've found a way to survive.....

[/ QUOTE ]

So do homeless people.

ALL1N

10-27-2005, 06:58 AM

IMO, as a mod, you should decrease your use of FYP, and increase your use of <ban>.

surfdoc

10-27-2005, 07:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your right.... I suck at poker and business, but somehow i've found a way to survive.....

[/ QUOTE ]

So do homeless people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice. So basic, yet so true.

ggbman

10-27-2005, 08:22 AM

Tommy sucks at poker and yet somehow he gets players making over $600/hr to come pay him 5k to learn from him. Guess he survives too.

mplspoker

10-27-2005, 08:26 AM

guess we will all just "survive" then....

MaxPower

10-27-2005, 10:19 AM

Having tried very hard to make a significant amount of money playing poker in my spare time over the last 10 months, I give respect to anyone who consistently earns a living at poker year after year. Even more so if they only play live.

I also have a greater appreciation of the value of not tilting.

Justin A

10-27-2005, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your right.... I suck at poker and business, but somehow i've found a way to survive.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the biggest fish in a poker room is quite successful in the business world.

bicyclekick

10-27-2005, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tommy sucks at poker and yet somehow he gets players making over $600/hr to come pay him 5k to learn from him. Guess he survives too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who's making over 600 an hour that's gone to tommy? I would love to talk to them. I think you're exagerating a bit here but I dunno. I'm sure some players who are making 3-400 an hour have, but even with that i bet there aren't all that many.

durrrr

10-27-2005, 06:58 PM

mplspoker

10-27-2005, 07:13 PM

Thanks for giving these guys a dose of reality.

ggbman

10-28-2005, 09:00 AM

Ok, maybe i exaggerated, but the point was really that there are people who are very good players and make lots of money who still want to improve their game and feel that Tommy has something to offer.

Mempho

10-28-2005, 09:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh...live games are a lot easier, I'll be the first to tell you that but I think this is way out of line. The fact that he plays in easier live games does not correlate to his ability to play in tougher games. It sounds to me like you haven't had a real dose of variance backlash yet.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 10:05 AM

I play 99% on the Internet. All i am saying is that when i read posts (from various posters) juicy 20/40 action at Commerce, etc... it tells me one of three things.. 1) They are playing poker for fun. 2) They don't understand they could be making WAY more online 3) They aren't capable of beating even close to the same limit online. 4) They don't care about money.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing live, just saying very very difficult to pull good money... and impossible unbless you are playing pretty high.

Chris Daddy Cool

10-28-2005, 11:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I play 99% on the Internet. All i am saying is that when i read posts (from various posters) juicy 20/40 action at Commerce, etc... it tells me one of three things.. 1) They are playing poker for fun. 2) They don't understand they could be making WAY more online 3) They aren't capable of beating even close to the same limit online. 4) They don't care about money.

[/ QUOTE ]

a combination of 1 and 4 are much more likely than 2 and 3.

many good players absolutely hate online play because its boring to them, regardless of how much more they can make, and i don't think many of them complain about their living conditions and/or lifestyle either.

andyfox

10-28-2005, 11:27 AM

How do you know Tommy doesn't play on-line?

andyfox

10-28-2005, 11:31 AM

Excellent points. I remember when Gabe posted a couple years ago about how he had played and spent some time with Clarkmeister and said that it had caused him to think about the game in ways he had never even thought of. Gabe's a remarkably good player. I always think of that post whenever, running well, I get too full of myself.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 11:59 AM

I've never heard him make (1) comment/post about online play.. You act like you think it's "amazing" that i know things without actually "knowing" the person. Well when a person tells me he plays XYZ limit online or plays XYZ limit in a casino... i don't know exactly what they are making , but there is a reasonable "range" they are in terms of $$/hr if they are winning..

I know it was a crazy idea to think he doesn't play online, considering he has wrote a million articles/posts and nont one has mentioned his online play..

PokerBob

10-28-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I play 99% on the Internet.......
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with playing live, just saying very very difficult to pull good money

[/ QUOTE ]

um, you don't pay live, but yet you know how much one can make. ugh.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 04:23 PM

Your right I have no idea how much $$ you make at canterbury in a month... but I do know I pull a lot more off poker than you do....

PokerBob

10-28-2005, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Your right I have no idea how much $$ you make at canterbury in a month... but I do know I pull a lot more off poker than you do....

[/ QUOTE ]

(a) you have no idea how much money i make so (b) you cannot say you make more (or even a lot more) than me and besides (c) i suck at poker, so saying you make more than me is like saying you can beat Stephen Hawking at basketball and (d) your retarted.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 05:01 PM

E) I've made over $50,000 (including rakeback) in three different months since i started playing. How many times have you done that at Canterbury? Zero. Has anybody ever done that at Canterbury? Doubtful.. End of converstation.

I'm not saying i'm a great player, just saying that where you are playing is not where the $$ are.....

nubs

10-28-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You must like pushing on a rope.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is applicable to everyone who keeps trying to convince mplspoker of anything. He obviously isnt here to learn, i suggest using the ignore user feature.

bicyclekick

10-28-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
E) I've made over $50,000 (including rakeback) in three different months since i started playing. How many times have you done that at Canterbury? Zero. Has anybody ever done that at Canterbury? Doubtful.. End of converstation.

I'm not saying i'm a great player, just saying that where you are playing is not where the $$ are.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Preaching to the wrong choir. poker bob is an online player duh.

There was a young player at canterbury last night trying to tell me that online was where the big money can be made. Pretty amusing.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 05:05 PM

Maybe it is the other way around for certain posters here.....

sfer

10-28-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
E) I've made over $50,000 (including rakeback) in three different months since i started playing. How many times have you done that at Canterbury? Zero. Has anybody ever done that at Canterbury? Doubtful.. End of converstation.

I'm not saying i'm a great player, just saying that where you are playing is not where the $$ are.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only are you a bidnessman, you are a badass. Boo-ya.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 05:10 PM

well why the hell is poker bob trying to get into an arguement about how i can "assume" how much money can be made at canterbury then?? I don't care, but he is the one who started this...

andyfox

10-28-2005, 05:20 PM

What I find amazing is that you conclude he doesn't play online because he doesn't post any online hands under Tommy Angelo. And that you can make a conclusion about whether Tommy would be a good teacher for somebody without knowing Tommy, where he plays, how he plays, or how he teaches.

When BK asked if he should use Tommy's services, those who have used Tommy or know him and how he plays and teaches gave their recommendations. How else would one know what to recommend unless one has knowledge of those things? You have no knowledge of those things.

PokerBob

10-28-2005, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
well why the hell is poker bob trying to get into an arguement about how i can "assume" how much money can be made at canterbury then??

[/ QUOTE ]

i never said anything about how much money can be made at Canterbury. I simply stated that since you played "99% online" (your words, not mine), you have minimal knowledge of what can be made live as you RARELY PLAY LIVE.

as far as this statement of yours but I do know I pull a lot more off poker than you do.... again, you make foolish assumptions. you have no idea how much money i make playing poker, yet you assume the amount you make is more. take a logic class.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 05:34 PM

I assumed you played 100% at canterbury. if that was the case I know 100% i made signficantly more.. bottomline.

baronzeus

10-28-2005, 05:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I assumed you played 100% at canterbury.

[/ QUOTE ]

stupid assumption.

i just got in on this thread. nice post ggb.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 05:48 PM

Well is anyone here willing to ask Tommy how much time he has spent online.. how much $$ he has made online or anything of that sort?

My opinion is if he was super successful in live or online play he wouldn't be selling his knowledge for 5k , and if he wasn't he would be trying to sell something like this for 5k. Those are my thoughts and i'm sure others agree...

And for those of you questioning my "assumptions" i'm just basing them on the actual "FACTS" that have been presented online..

Pokerbob maybe have been joking around only playing at catnerbury but how am i supposed to know that.. Tommy has posted a million times never mentioning a thing about online, how am i supposed to know that.. im working off facts presented...

ggbman

10-28-2005, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Although it's slightly amusing having people come in and whip out their E-Dick only to have Andyfox, El Diablo and come company tell them they are wrong, i just think there is a bit too much on these boards.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
E) I've made over $50,000 (including rakeback) in three different months since i started playing. How many times have you done that at Canterbury? Zero. Has anybody ever done that at Canterbury? Doubtful.. End of converstation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just by the way, this is kind of garbage i am refering to. There is no need to pollute every thread with this crap. I started this thread SPECIFCALLY in hopes that you would not chime in and people would be allowed to think with an open mind. The whole point that you don't seem to get is that someone doesn't have to be better than you for you to learn from them. Congratualtions on the $$$.

PokerBob

10-28-2005, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Pokerbob maybe have been joking around only playing at catnerbury but how am i supposed to know that

[/ QUOTE ]

You would know it if i ever stated that i only played live. i never said i did. you just assumed it. you assume a lot. that is unwise IMHO. i'll let others elaborate.

PokerBob

10-28-2005, 05:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know 100% i made signficantly more.. bottomline.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you like to compare cock-size too?

bicyclekick

10-28-2005, 06:00 PM

Until today I thought everyone was mb being a little harsh to you. Now I understand why.

Quit clogging up mid-high please. Can't just ignore you as most of the topics have something to do with you so you're distracting everyone else.

Victor

10-28-2005, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
E) I've made over $50,000 (including rakeback) in three different months since i started playing. How many times have you done that at Canterbury? Zero. Has anybody ever done that at Canterbury? Doubtful.. End of converstation.

[/ QUOTE ]

judging who is right or wrong by how much money they make is a dangerous precedent in nearly all of life.

kidcolin

10-28-2005, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And for those of you questioning my "assumptions" i'm just basing them on the actual "FACTS" that have been presented online..

Pokerbob maybe have been joking around only playing at catnerbury but how am i supposed to know that.. Tommy has posted a million times never mentioning a thing about online, how am i supposed to know that.. im working off facts presented...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why PokerBob suggested taking a logic class. Working off of "FACTS" is one thing.. to falsely infer they lead to certain conclusions is another.

10-28-2005, 06:22 PM

You make a lot of $$$ playing online poker. Good for you! Tommy Angelo probably doesn't make as much money as you playing poker. Wow, you're the man! Just STFU already.

FWIW, just b/c you make more money than TA 8 tabling 30/60 doesn't mean you're a better player. You just can't logically draw that conclusion. If you're playing 10X the number of hands as him, you SHOULD be making more money than him.

It's surprising that someone that is such a winner in life has been able to do so with the reasoning skills of an 8 year old.

Chris Daddy Cool

10-28-2005, 06:24 PM

did you know that tommy plays a lot of short handed 40/80 and 80/160 live?

and i don't want to assume anything on his winrate but i'm guessing an excellent player (and from what i've seen of tommy, he is) can earn something like $200/hr (40/80) to $300-$400/hr (80/160) in those conditions. even if i was to be conservative, $150/hr to $250/hr, is still more than what many people can earn online even 8 tabling. so you can win $400/hr 8 tabling 30/60? thats fine, whatever. but note that people who play live primarily don't have to click a mouse a billion times at once sitting alone behind their computer to earn similiar (if not better in some cases) earn.

but the whole point of these threads was to determine whether or not you could learn something from a live player simply because you "knew" for sure you made more money than him. your continued pressing that you possibly couldn't just doesn't make any sense at all. your assertion that poker is a buisine where money is everything is wrong. first and foremost, poker is a game. the ability to play the game well has almost nothing to do with how much money one makes.

but if that doesn't make sense to you, could you honestly answer these questions for me please?

a) athletes have individual coaches for varoius things, despite making a lot more money than them. why?

b) really rich people usually have one or more financial advisors despite them obviously having more money than them. why?

c) actors have acting coaches despite them making a lot more money than them. why?

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 06:34 PM

I business/poker i don't believe it is.. If i have proof that a guy is making more than i do i have to assume the fact that he is a better poker player. There is a reason people are where they are financially in poker and business.

If you think taking advice from people who are successful already and not talkking advice from people who are doing worse than you is a big mistake in poker or business you don't know much about either... I'm not talking about life, i'm talking about making a living....

Justin A

10-28-2005, 06:41 PM

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 06:52 PM

yeah there really is more to life, but there isn't more to business/poker.. its about money..

Schneids

10-28-2005, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I business/poker i don't believe it is.. If i have proof that a guy is making more than i do i have to assume the fact that he is a better poker player. There is a reason people are where they are financially in poker and business.

If you think taking advice from people who are successful already and not talkking advice from people who are doing worse than you is a big mistake in poker or business you don't know much about either... I'm not talking about life, i'm talking about making a living....

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker is a long run game. Some guys "earning $600/hr" here are really earning $350/hr but running hot over a hundred or two hundred thousand hand stretch. Or, maybe they are exclusively running hot only when they play in limits higher than they normally do. Or, consider an online player who earns shittons because he plays 8 tables 30hrs a week. Maybe he is a modest winner but through sheer volume he wons at a higher hourly rate than Tommy. You think that it's possible Tommy could simply be a better poker player than the mediocre multitabler, and this mediocre multitabler could stand to learn stuff to substantially improve his WR, even though his hourly already exceeded Tommy's (but not his actual BB/100)? There's so many ways your logic makes zero sense. For real just trust the 100000 posters here who have played with Tommy and say he is a formidable table presence.

Klepton

10-28-2005, 07:07 PM

i think this forum has recognized that this guy is a troll.
moderator, please ban him.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 07:13 PM

1) If Tommy was making those numbers he wouldn't be dinking around with selling his advice. Obvious.

2) If you think the top people in any profession got where they are because of "coaches" you are dreaming. Mentors that have already been very succesful yes.

3) I didn't learn a dam thing about how to make money from going to school for finance/entrepeneurship because i was being "taught" by people who hand't done much .. if they knew how to make $$ they wouldn't be teaching.. obvious..

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 07:16 PM

Ok fine. I don't question that its possible he is better than avg multitabler, but i pretty much have to question a lot about him if he is and he chooses to make a lot less $$ doing what he is doing than. It doesn't work both ways.

scott8

10-28-2005, 07:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think this forum has recognized that this guy is a troll.
moderator, please ban him.

[/ QUOTE ]

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 07:19 PM

I understand how it is much easier.. i just have a really hard time understanding if you were good enough to do it well why you would accept a lot less money to play live..

Justin A

10-28-2005, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think this forum has recognized that this guy is a troll.
moderator, please ban him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Justin A

10-28-2005, 07:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok fine. I don't question that its possible he is better than avg multitabler, but i pretty much have to question a lot about him if he is and he chooses to make a lot less $$ doing what he is doing than. It doesn't work both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

You continually show the forum that you lack logic and reasoning skills. Remember when I said earlier that life isn't all about money? Well maybe, just maybe, Tommy values his enjoyment a little bit more than turning out more profit playing online.

bicyclekick

10-28-2005, 07:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) If Tommy was making those numbers he wouldn't be dinking around with selling his advice. Obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he enjoys teaching or at least just a change of pace? Obvoius.

[ QUOTE ]

3) I didn't learn a dam thing about how to make money from going to school for finance/entrepeneurship because i was being "taught" by people who hand't done much .. if they knew how to make $$ they wouldn't be teaching.. obvious..

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they teaching or at least just a change of pace? Obvoius.

bicyclekick

10-28-2005, 07:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand how it is much easier.. i just have a really hard time understanding if you were good enough to do it well why you would accept a lot less money to play live..

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe he lives the life he wants to live and doesn't need MORE MORE MORE. This might not make sense to you, but think about it...(I know this is going to be tough)...but maybe just MAYBE the guy lives to be happy and maybe the happiness he gets from playing live and making the money he does gives him far more happiness than making 'more' playing online.

Obvious.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 07:52 PM

Ok thats understandable, but how do YOU make these assumptions .. to turn it around a little..

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 08:09 PM

Bike .. you need a reality check. Believe or not ... most people who are teachers in business at universities if had the opportunity/money/desire/drive would be doing something different if they could. I'm trying to be a prick here just telling you that people work for $$ in life .... If most people had the choice of doing whatever they want when they wake up... Many would be doing something different.. People have obligations kids/family/bills/etc. these things are important. The reason people get paid for jobs is because nobody else would do it for a dollar less.. that is economics supply/demand.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 08:18 PM

It's probably true... but you are making another "assumption". The weird part is that i respect what you have done with poker. You are successful at it and that speaks for itself. I respect your decision to do this for a living vs. other career choices. Many people on this site are young and doing well online, but don't realize the value of money and how screwed they would be if they had to get a job in the real world and how they would be making a lot less and working a lot more. I love how people sit around here and talk about how it isn't , but the facts are wait til you don't have any and then we should talk about how important it is..... too many people around here are living in a dream world...

Kaeser

10-28-2005, 08:25 PM

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 08:34 PM

Yeah I agree but generally when people start making some decent money they are trying to figure out how not to have to work too.... which generally involves finding a way to make more money.

Kaeser

10-28-2005, 08:45 PM

Absolutely, but from everything we know about Tommy (which admittedly is very little) he makes good money. The fact that he could make more money doing doing something he possibly doesn't enjoy as much is irrelevant in this case. If you truly enjoy what your doing then it's not really work is it?

I recently came into enough money that I never have to work again. I still am getting a job as a dealer when I get out of the military and I'm still playing 3-6/4-8 because it's just something I enjoy doing.

mplspoker

10-28-2005, 09:48 PM

Thats cool about your situation, although i dont' know why you would want to deal, and just not play the entire time? It's just hard for me to understand how people could do the same thing (play poker) and accept making a lot less. You would never see a trader on wall street somehow trying to justify that he trades a certain way that makes him a lot less , but he enjoys it more, etc...

If i had the opportunity to make a dollar more doing something different that i could still put up with in my spare time I would be doing it, this may not be ordinary, but i know i'm not alone here...

jason_t

10-28-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I know you guys are going to hate this, but i just had to post it..... Maybe that is WHY Tommy Plays LIVE.... just some food for thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

Suggestion: stop replying to this slightly sophisticated troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kaeser

10-28-2005, 10:20 PM

Ok I guess this will be my last reply since I don't want to annoy the rest of the high/stakes posters. I'll just answer your questions then go about my business.

I'm dealing just because I want to be a floor and dealing seems like a good way to work my way up.

I don't know about trading on wall street, and I'm not even sure that Tommy doesn't play online, but I do know that the two games are very different. I myself find it boring to play online compared to live. Most posters here would disagree with that.

krishanleong

10-28-2005, 10:59 PM

krishanleong

10-28-2005, 11:01 PM

Great post Gabe. Hijack was unfortunate.

Krishan

helpmeout

10-29-2005, 02:58 AM

Money doesnt make you happier nor is it a way of measuring skill in any particular field.

If I had the option of playing poker 15 hours a week for $50k a year playing 1-2 tables online or live or making over $250k a year playing 6-10 tables for 50 hours a week I'd take the first option.

There is just more to life than making money/working/playing poker.

etizzle

10-29-2005, 03:10 AM

many teachers at top universities are freaking millionaires or close to it due to book sales/ patents/ making $500+/hr doing consulting.

bottomset

10-29-2005, 04:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Gabe. Hijack was unfortunate.

Krishan

[/ QUOTE ]

adsman

10-29-2005, 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bike .. you need a reality check. Believe or not ... most people who are teachers in business at universities if had the opportunity/money/desire/drive would be doing something different if they could. I'm trying to be a prick here just telling you that people work for $$ in life .... If most people had the choice of doing whatever they want when they wake up... Many would be doing something different.. People have obligations kids/family/bills/etc. these things are important. The reason people get paid for jobs is because nobody else would do it for a dollar less.. that is economics supply/demand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I teach languages at a university in Trento, Italy part time. I could earn 5 times the money that I earn working in the business sector here but I would have to work more than 5 times the hours that I presently work to get that money.

Plus I would have to work with the usual bunch of pricks in the business world, where instead I work in a lovely campus with great bunches of kids with whom I have made of lot of valuable friendships.

Plus I have a lot of free time which I use to travel, play poker, snowboard in the mountains where I live, read, enjoy life.

I could be doing something different as you say, but why on earth would I want to? I'm not going to berate you but I will say that I do feel sorry for you. I can only hope that one day you will look back on what you've written here and sigh with relief that you managed to break out of the life-rut which you are presently in.

By the way, the vast majority of people in a life-rut of this type are in denial so they have no idea that the way that they think and view the world might have something wrong with it. Which makes breaking out of the rut extremely difficult. Good luck.

mplspoker

10-29-2005, 05:58 AM

There is a reason you are broke.

mplspoker

10-29-2005, 06:00 AM

I'll be perfectly honest dude.. Either job you weren't doing very well... whats the difference .. your right??!!

mplspoker

10-29-2005, 06:07 AM

You don't have a fnning clue.. 500 bucks an hour.. give me a break... you live in a dream world i live in reality....

Xtian11

10-29-2005, 06:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]

(d) your retarted.

[/ QUOTE ]

(e) you're

mplspoker

10-29-2005, 06:59 AM

Dude. Nice to here how you "could" do this and that, but honestly.... all it is is conversation... Until you actually jump into the real world you haven't seen/done anything.. no offense...

mplspoker

10-29-2005, 07:25 AM

no i live in reality... 500/hr give me a break....

bambi

10-29-2005, 09:06 AM

Ok this will go down in history as the best post that has been hijjacked.

I read about half the posts and then thought, these people are really pathetic.

I personally dont care about who is better or why, and how much you make.

Also if somebody think a player is [censored] he is allowed to think that, and he is allowed to post about it, its called free speach.

If you disagree then deal with it, some very smart people arent thinking very clearly here.

Barry

10-29-2005, 09:40 AM

It is apparent that this fellow is the epitome of the person that thinks that they already know everything that there is to know and therefore anyone that doesn't agree with him is "retarded". Therefore there is also no point in "helping" him understand.

I have decided that the best approach is...

*** You are ignoring this user ***

mplspoker

10-29-2005, 11:12 AM

No they aren't. They are taking everything the wrong way. They take comments about Tommy (which maybe true) personally (for some reason), then try to get in arguements about life (point of life / happiness) when all we are talking about here is how to make a living... Then call me an idiot because i tell them this is a business.. follow the money you'll find who/who isn't successful.... Personally, if this was in person there is not a chance in hell this would even be a long conversation.

In the real world let's say you are a stock broker.. you say I'm making X (spending identical time)... your making 1/2X (spending the same amount of time).. X is either better at his job or smarter, etc. end of story. I know thats blunt, thats the way the world works. I accept the fact that many players are better than me at poker, but don't make excuses for why I'm not making more, etc.... And I don't expect others to either. 90%+ people if had the choice to make more $$ doing the same thing they are doing would do it. The reality is ... some people are capable and some people aren't. A lot aren't actually capable. Everyone here has listened to idiots in poker rooms talk about how they always lose online and win in the casino.. and know in the back of their mind are thinking.. no you just suck at poker, but are able to grind out a small profit against complete retards that are sitting at a live table with you, but when the margin is smaller you will lose your ass...

Clarkmeister

10-29-2005, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
the money you'll find who/who isn't successful

[/ QUOTE ]

As others have said, the problem is that you define money=success. I know for a fact that with Tommy, not only does money not equal success, it is so far down the list of priorities as to be insignificant. I don't think anyone is trying to convince you that Tommy is the world's greatest poker player, or even the world's greatest poker coach. All they are saying is that you will be better off in life understanding that others have entirely different life priorities than you do - something you seem to think is impossible.

ResidentParanoid

10-29-2005, 12:33 PM

100+ responses and all I can say is,.....**yawn**, .... what were we talking about?

Justin A

10-29-2005, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the money you'll find who/who isn't successful

[/ QUOTE ]

As others have said, the problem is that you define money=success. I know for a fact that with Tommy, not only does money not equal success, it is so far down the list of priorities as to be insignificant. I don't think anyone is trying to convince you that Tommy is the world's greatest poker player, or even the world's greatest poker coach. All they are saying is that you will be better off in life understanding that others have entirely different life priorities than you do - something you seem to think is impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

A Plea (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3804410&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

BobboFitos

10-29-2005, 02:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
\

a) athletes have individual coaches for varoius things, despite making a lot more money than them. why?

b) really rich people usually have one or more financial advisors despite them obviously having more money than them. why?

c) actors have acting coaches despite them making a lot more money than them. why?

[/ QUOTE ]

nic epost cdc

... i wonder who said that first though =)

hobbsmann

10-29-2005, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You don't have a fnning clue.. 500 bucks an hour.. give me a break... you live in a dream world i live in reality....

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes 500/hr. My dad is a Prof. at Caltech (and btw he does what he does because he loves science and not the money being a prof. offers) and routinely gets consulting jobs ranging from $200-500/hr based on the company that hired him.

10-29-2005, 06:08 PM

I feel a lot of posters in this thread are over-reacting to what mplspoker has to say. Although he presents his argument a little harshly I think the point he is making is sound.

We live in a materialistic society. We are taught from a very young age to equate wealth and possesions with success and happiness. It takes a very rare person to break out of this frame of mind in my opinion. Therefore most people try to achieve success through money, or in other words through a high hourly rate. Since most people try to achieve success through an hourly rate than it stands to reasons that the people who don't achieve this rate are not as "successful".

Now I'm not saying that I don't respect people who intentionally take lower earning jobs to increase their happiness. On the contrary I hope to one day be able to do this. But if one were to make a blanket statement about how to find the most succesful people in our society it would make sense to look for people with the most money. It's easy to see that Bill Gates is a very successful person. It's harder to see that a farmer living solely off their crops with no other income is as successful. Even though the latter may be happier.

How this relates to Tommy I don't really know, since I have no idea who he really is. Although I will say that it seems logical to me that someone would opt to play live poker at a reduced earning rather than play online. Live poker just seems like a more fun/social activity to me.

Ed Miller

10-30-2005, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i just have a really hard time understanding

[/ QUOTE ]

Truer words...

etizzle

10-30-2005, 03:37 AM

bingo

this is simiiar to professors make at other (top 10) schools from what i've heard.

mplspoker

10-30-2005, 01:46 PM

Were talking avg. salary over the course of a year. Making $300/$500 per hour results in $600,000 to $1M/year. Very Very Very few professors make anything even remotely close to that.

LittleOldLady

10-30-2005, 02:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Were talking avg. salary over the course of a year. Making $300/$500 per hour results in $600,000 to $1M/year. Very Very Very few professors make anything even remotely close to that.

[/ QUOTE ]

For heaven's sake, the figure quoted was for CONSULTING, not for base salary from one's university. For short-term consulting, even I would get 3 figures an hour (but not as high as $500), and I am in the liberal arts, not the sciences where the consulting opportunities are more frequent and more lucrative. The one time I did do consulting in the sciences (NIH), I got paid PLENTY for very little work--plus meals and a bunch of little perks. A professor in the sciences at a top-tier US university gets in the lower 6 figures as a base salary--with grants, consulting, etc., on top of that.