$33 Poll: 8 Left; 15/30 Blinds

[zipppy]

This is a fabricated hand, but the situation occurs on a consistant basis.

8 Left, blinds 15/30; no read on villian (still early).
--before posting--
Seat 1: 1430 chips
Seat 3: 740 chips
Seat 4: 825 chips (VILLIAN)
Seat 5: 775 chips
Seat 6: 1020 chips
Seat 7: 860 chips
Seat 8: 1415 chips
Seat 9: 935 chips (HERO)

Seat 1 is the button.
Seats 3 & 4 post.
Dealt to hero: (K /images/graemlins/club.gif,Q /images/graemlins/club.gif)
Seat 5 folds.
Seat 6 calls.
Seats 7 & 8 fold.
Hero calls.
Seats 9 & 1 fold.
Seat 3 folds.
Villian checks.

Pot -- 90.
Flop:
8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Villian bets 60.
Seat 6 folds.

I'm curious as to what other 2+2ers do here.
Hero?

[bennies]

raise it up to 250.



...

just kidding.

[tigerite]

Erm fold preflop generally. Crap hand to play in MP. Crap hand to play most times actually, but from the button it's just about acceptable.

Naturally this is a fold on the flop.

Definitely call. Call all the way to the river...the guy is obviously bluffing and you want to extract more chips.

JK...why even put call on the poll? I guess you could get fancy and then call here and raise the turn. Act like you have A8 or something and then lose all your chips when the other guy actually does.

I fold...I probably fold PF with just 1 other limper.

[zipppy]

I pose this poll because this is a spot I've started (awhile ago) raising.

What kind of a hand would the villian have in which he'd bet 60 in this spot? I think a PP of some sort, or perhaps a 2. If it is a PP, there's a good chance it isn't higher than an 8 since he didn't raise pre. (maybe 99 or tens, but usually not JJ or higher).

Do you believe he has an 8? How many of you would bet 2/3 of the pot on an uncoordinated board that gives you a set? More importantly, how many of your opponents will?

Bad/average players live for two things: WPT bluffs, and slow playing big hands.

If I have a read on an opponent, sometimes I choose to fold, and sometimes I choose to check with the intention of raising after the turn.

Thoughts?

>>>ZIPPPY

I raise here. There's a strong chance I'm wrong here, but I'd like to hear why.

[zipppy]

I put call on the poll to be complete. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[zambonidrivr]

fold preflop.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

not an option /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

seriously though, maybe you're holding AJ, or AQ, or something else that you'd be in a pot against someone else in this spot.

Think of it in general terms: Two overs, 882 flop. Villian bets, your move?

I think the 60 bet on the flop is a sign of 1 of 2 things...either he has you beat and is building the pot, in which case you should expect to see a pot sized bet on the turn. or, he is bluffing you and expect to see a pot sized bet on the turn. are you going to call or raise a pot sized bet on the turn? what will you do if he raises significantly on the turn? if you will fold, i would just fold this now?

Personally, i probably would have limped in with this hand like you did, but i would quickly fold to this raise.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the 60 bet on the flop is a sign of 1 of 2 things...either he has you beat and is building the pot, in which case you should expect to see a pot sized bet on the turn. or, he is bluffing you and expect to see a pot sized bet on the turn. are you going to call or raise a pot sized bet on the turn? what will you do if he raises significantly on the turn? if you will fold, i would just fold this now?

Personally, i probably would have limped in with this hand like you did, but i would quickly fold to this raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would only call/raise if I had a strong read on the opponent.

With no read, I raise here. This way I see where he stands before the turn. Mostly I raise because I believe my opponent is bluffing. No one (as in, 97% of people won't) bets that flop with an 8.

And I disagree with one thought: If he's bluffing, and I call, not every opponent will c-bet the turn. Calling will slow a lot of people down. I'm not saying it's good to do because it might slow them down, I'm just saying it's not an automatic that your opponent is going to raise the turn.

The reason I dont bluff here is because it just isnt worth it. You may indeed be right and have the best hand here, but there are still 2 cards to come and you are making a move on a tiny pot, with big potential to turn ugly.

I think at the 33s, where i play, it isnt important to take advantage of EVERY situation where you believe you are ahead. Let me explain myself...There are many hands where you are sitting on a big hand and will get paid off. I would put all my chips in on level 1 hand 1 in this situation. But, right now any ace has you beat and the players at the 33s often get married to aces. I just think that you can find a better place, later in the sng, to try this type of move. it just isnt worth the risk this early.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

not an option /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

seriously though, maybe you're holding AJ, or AQ, or something else that you'd be in a pot against someone else in this spot.

Think of it in general terms: Two overs, 882 flop. Villian bets, your move?

[/ QUOTE ]

honestly

if you dont know how to play this post flop then the answer is an emphatic fold preflop. The very fact that this poll is up is proof to me that you need to fold this preflop.

There are lots of ways to play it +EV, but the rest of your game has to follow suit as well.

The best thing for you to do IF you dont know how to play this post flop is to fold preflop with no question in my mind at all.

If you are looking to get better at post flop play then it is my opinion that you need to look at your gameplan as a whole, not in individual hands.

Is your goal to play tight then push bot?
Is your goal to take every edge you think you have and work on $/hr rather then roi?
Is your goal to reach a certain chip count by X level then switch gears?

In the cited example you have a pair on a rag board HU now with the BB betting into you. I think it is a dangerous place to get fancy. Cold calling then popping the turn if he checks isnt a terrible plan if you know your opponent. You have no draw and have shown no strength preflop. Even if you catch the K and the Q you may still be behind.

Also.... If you are going to play KQs I like a raise preflop better then a limp, but then again,,,,, it all comes down to how you will play the rest of the tourny.

Hope this helped.

My biggest problem with this hand is that ace high has you beat. you whiffed on the flop, why not just lick your wounds, suck up the blind you lost, and find a better spot to maneuver. i just feel like its too early. I believe these types of moves dont pay off nearly well enough to justify it this early. I do like this move later in a sng when blinds are larger...most definitely, but not this early. just my preference.

[zipppy]

"playing postflop" should consist of more than just betting/calling/raising with made hands. I don't just play my own cards. I think of what my opponents have, and what they think I have.

I believe not raising is playing post flop incorrectly.

[zipppy]

People do get married to their aces; I think this could be a concern.

However, if a player is likely to bet the flop with high card ace, there's a good chance they would've raised preflop with it, no? Maybe not.

"But, right now any ace has you beat and the players at the 33s often get married to aces. "

Ain't that the truth....and any sooted ace is worth going all-in.

Nothing surprises me on the 33s...actually, the only thing that surprises me is how i consistantly over-estimate the skill of my opponent. my gut tells me to fold this hand...and i would instafold if i were playing this hand instead of you...but again, preference. my argument against raising is there is no need to make a move like this this early in the sng. to me, the level of the sng is like position in the hand...the earlier the level or position, the stronger my hand needs to be.

[zipppy]

I guess this gets to the heart of the matter, too. I was curious how many 2+2ers play their own cards in this spot, and how many factor in what their opponents have.

This hand is more about what the villian has than what you do.

The raise could be wrong, but I think it'd be good for people to think of this hand in terms of what villian has too, and not just what you're holding.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing surprises me on the 33s...actually, the only thing that surprises me is how i consistantly over-estimate the skill of my opponent. my gut tells me to fold this hand...and i would instafold if i were playing this hand instead of you...but again, preference. my argument against raising is there is no need to make a move like this this early in the sng. to me, the level of the sng is like position in the hand...the earlier the level or position, the stronger my hand needs to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you.

what if, however, you amended that last statement to say: "the earlier the level or position, the stronger my hand needs to be, or the weaker my opponents needs to be".

I think this would be +ev. I'm not saying pull off bluffs all the time, but this hand is a strong spot to pick up a pot, in my opinion.

[stupidsucker]

What is your general gameplan?

How many tables do you have running?

Are you able to get away from the hand if you need to?

Are you comfortable with playing short stacked here often if your "outplaying" fails?


So many factors go into play, and you seem to be only focused on 1. "What does my opponent have".

[ QUOTE ]
This hand is more about what the villian has than what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me why..

BTW... I am not trying to be an ass. I am animated today. Trying to make you think is all, and unlock all the possibilities. That is what you want after all isnt it?

To me...it is not worth the risk at this point in the tourney...and people play crazy at the 33s. I have seen people calling a push here with a 2 or even an AJ.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your general gameplan?

How many tables do you have running?

Are you able to get away from the hand if you need to?

Are you comfortable with playing short stacked here often if your "outplaying" fails?


So many factors go into play, and you seem to be only focused on 1. "What does my opponent have".


BTW... I am not trying to be an ass. I am animated today. Trying to make you think is all, and unlock all the possibilities. That is what you want after all isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the questions, SS.

General gameplan: win money? Do you mean for the hand, or for the SNG?

Tables: 4 usually. For this spot, I don't think it matters, as I think this is a raise when you don't have a read.

Able to get away: Absolutely. If I raise and opponent calls/raises, it's usually check fold to the river unless a Q or K falls, at which point it depends on my opponents course of action.

I'm always comfortable to play short stacked, and in this case a raise to 200 will get a bluff away, so I'd still have 600+ chips (more than 10 BB until 50/100).

I have been focused on what my opponent has in this thread; I think mostly to compensate for people that are thinking about it *only* in terms of what hero holds. These other questions you raised are necessary, and I still think a raise is correct.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This hand is more about what the villian has than what you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me why..

[/ QUOTE ]

Because the bet by the villian is so unnatural. I think recognizing spots like this is important, and not often discussed in the STT forum. I know that STTs are profitable when pushbotting, but they're even more profitable when you kind find spots to win pots regardless (you like that, scuba? no "ir" prefix...) of what your hand is.

>>ZIPPPY

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
To me...it is not worth the risk at this point in the tourney...and people play crazy at the 33s. I have seen people calling a push here with a 2 or even an AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, but then again a push after the raise looks like a bluff, too.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you.

what if, however, you amended that last statement to say: "the earlier the level or position, the stronger my hand needs to be, or the weaker my opponents needs to be".

I think this would be +ev. I'm not saying pull off bluffs all the time, but this hand is a strong spot to pick up a pot, in my opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

You amending of the statement is good.

I like this move on level 4 or 5 when we are 5 or 6 handed...but i dont change gears and make this move this early on. it is just something i wont do, similar to i wont push all my chips in on a coinflip early on...just something i avoid. so, because of my tight style early on, the thought of playing this hand never enters my mind...

if you are going to play it, i think a raise would be necessary. Villian bet into you for 60, how much would you raise? Whats your move if he doesnt fold and pushes over the top?

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]


I believe not raising is playing post flop incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so unbeliveably wrong. You're trying to be fancy. You do not need to be fancy. I'm willing to guess that if you played made hands strongly, and played the bubble very well, and left out all the crap like "raising the flop with K-high" out of your game, you would be a very consistent winner. Why would I assume that? Because it's what I do.

Even if bluffing was important. You ask "how often does he have an 8." I ask you. "How often is the BB (who can have any two here), bet out the 2/3 the pot with 2 players left to act on a pure bluff."

I can just about guarantee you the answer to your question is a higher percentage than the answer to my question.

[nyc999]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I believe not raising is playing post flop incorrectly.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so unbeliveably wrong. You're trying to be fancy. You do not need to be fancy. I'm willing to guess that if you played made hands strongly, and played the bubble very well, and left out all the crap like "raising the flop with K-high" out of your game, you would be a very consistent winner. Why would I assume that? Because it's what I do.

Even if bluffing was important. You ask "how often does he have an 8." I ask you. "How often is the BB (who can have any two here), bet out the 2/3 the pot with 2 players left to act on a pure bluff."

I can just about guarantee you the answer to your question is a higher percentage than the answer to my question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

You said who would bet out with an 8? Well, who would raise with an 8? I think most would slow play and call ->check/raise turn. So your raise may equally be taken for a bluff.

[TWINUNO]

it mainly depends on the image of the table, if the table is been quite passive i wouldnt mine a link but your throwing it away to a raise.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

This is so unbeliveably wrong. You're trying to be fancy. You do not need to be fancy. I'm willing to guess that if you played made hands strongly, and played the bubble very well, and left out all the crap like "raising the flop with K-high" out of your game, you would be a very consistent winner. Why would I assume that? Because it's what I do.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is fancy. I'm betting at my opponents weakness, which is similar to betting due to my strength.

I don't doubt that you are a consistant winner. So am I. However, you can't look at every situation and say, "I don't play it that way, and I'm a consistant winner, so it's wrong". If you do this, you'll never learn or think of other ways to play hands. And if you aren't the greatest player in the world (re: stanzee), then you have something to learn, and there may be ways to play some hands more profitably.

You may be right about this hand, but cut out the crap about "I'm a winning player so do it the way I do". Just give your reasons; if they're good enough, they'll stand on their own.

[ QUOTE ]

Even if bluffing was important. You ask "how often does he have an 8." I ask you. "How often is the BB (who can have any two here), bet out the 2/3 the pot with 2 players left to act on a pure bluff." I can just about guarantee you the answer to your question is a higher percentage than the answer to my question.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point. The fact that there are two players left when he bets should be a red flag that he's less likely to be purely bluffing.

Basically, (assuming you go into check/fold mode) if you raise to 200 (which is usually enough to chase bluffs out) you need to win here 6 times out of 10. In my experience I take down the pot here at a higher frequency.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
General gameplan: win money? Do you mean for the hand, or for the SNG?

[/ QUOTE ]
The SnG

what is your basic gameplan... The general strategy for a SnG is tight early then pushbot late. Is this your gameplan?

You need to think of how a hand like this will affect the rest of your game(plan). If you play this hand this way... where do you draw the line?

I think you are better off waiting for a better position and making this move with any 2 then from mid position KQs.
You need to draw a line on what is FPS and what is good solid play. Once you draw that line you can start playing better post flop.

Are you always going to try to outplay everyone on every flop? There is a lot of merit to doing this, BUT (and this is a big but)Playing like this causes chain reactions that you have to be ready to deal with. This hand can not be serarated from the rest of the tournament.

[ QUOTE ]
Able to get away: Absolutely. If I raise and opponent calls/raises, it's usually check fold to the river unless a Q or K falls, at which point it depends on my opponents course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say you raise his bet to 200 (140 back to him)as you mentioned. He cold calls you and the turn is a Q. He checks.... action? the pot is 490 now. What if he bets 200 into the pot on the turn instead of checking?

[ QUOTE ]
Because the bet by the villian is so unnatural.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting a paired rag board from the BB on a limped preflop is extremely natural for lots of players both stupid and smart reguardless of what they hold. You have no idea what category the BB is in. You can make some guesses, but he is now reresenting the 8 and you let him in preflop cheaply... Do you see how your limp preflop has changed your situation post flop tremendously.

Bottom line....

This spot can be +Chip EV in many ways, but has a lot of problems that come along with it. Your ability to change this into a + $ EV as well is up for a lot of discussion.

I too think that there are a lot of chips that CAN be gained early. I dont think that this is one of them.

Your position is bad
You have shown no strength preflop
You have no draw
You have no reads

You want to look for a situation that you are in control more. All you are doing is FPS here if you look at this hand as a single entity. If I were not guilty of this myself, I wouldnt feel so strongly about it.

There are ways to make this hand + EV, but it is more involved then what is being discussed here imo.

[zipppy]

"Your position is bad"
How is my position bad? I act behind villian.

"You have shown no strength preflop"
IMO this is okay when the flop has 2 eights.

"You have no draw"
Semi true. I think if the villian calls he is on a PP, in which case I have 5ish outs (since their pair could still hit)

"You have no reads"
True.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I pose this poll because this is a spot I've started (awhile ago) raising.

What kind of a hand would the villian have in which he'd bet 60 in this spot? I think a PP of some sort, or perhaps a 2. If it is a PP, there's a good chance it isn't higher than an 8 since he didn't raise pre. (maybe 99 or tens, but usually not JJ or higher).

Do you believe he has an 8? How many of you would bet 2/3 of the pot on an uncoordinated board that gives you a set? More importantly, how many of your opponents will?

Bad/average players live for two things: WPT bluffs, and slow playing big hands.

If I have a read on an opponent, sometimes I choose to fold, and sometimes I choose to check with the intention of raising after the turn.

Thoughts?

>>>ZIPPPY

I raise here. There's a strong chance I'm wrong here, but I'd like to hear why.

[/ QUOTE ]

The question is not whether you believe HE has an 8, but whether he believes YOU have an 8.

Such a pleasant fold for me.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]

The question is not whether you believe HE has an 8, but whether he believes YOU have an 8.



[/ QUOTE ]

it should be both, but you know that. Just pointing it out...

[SCfuji]

stanzee?

i pop this pf and raising here is suicide.

[zipppy]

Another advantage to raising here (albeit a very small one) is the read you get from your opponent based on their reaction. No reads come from folding, except the ones they get on you ("will fold if strength is shown"). This read can work to your advantage, though, too /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

I still think this is borderline, though, and with the right read I will either call/raise or raise. There are spots with no reads where raising is right, whether you call it FPS or not.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The question is not whether you believe HE has an 8, but whether he believes YOU have an 8.



[/ QUOTE ]

it should be both, but you know that. Just pointing it out...

[/ QUOTE ]


I think my point here is to make you think about what raising accomplishes...really nothing. What do you think you are ahead of here? Thats one thing. What if he calls your raise? You wasted a huge % of you stack for a nothing pot where you might not even be drawing to a better hand.

A raise here is terrible...just my opinion though.

The best way to make him believe you have an 8 would be to cold call flop and raise turn if he bets again, bet if checked to...hate that too though.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
raising here is suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is definitely not true. it sounds like you don't play much postflop, much like this forum. which is okay in this format, but this isn't that bad a spot to raise.

[zipppy]

The chips in the pot are more than 1/6 of your stack.

[stupidsucker]

You didn't answer the question that was most important to your cause...

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you raise his bet to 200 (140 back to him)as you mentioned. He cold calls you and the turn is a Q. He checks.... action? the pot is 490 now. What if he bets 200 into the pot on the turn instead of checking?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is soooooo important that you know what you will do before it happens. At least should have an idea.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer the question that was most important to your cause...

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you raise his bet to 200 (140 back to him)as you mentioned. He cold calls you and the turn is a Q. He checks.... action? the pot is 490 now. What if he bets 200 into the pot on the turn instead of checking?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is soooooo important that you know what you will do before it happens. At least should have an idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push. I don't put villian on an 8. If he calls, I put him on a pp lower than Q, in which case my hand is good.

[zipppy]

I should also say that if the villian is aggressive enough to bet an 8 on the flop, they most likely won't turn into a passive slow player when I show strength. This is why I don't put the villian on an 8 after that hypothetical situation.

hey Zip, if you put him on a PP, how is your hand good?

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
hey Zip, if you put him on a PP, how is your hand good?

[/ QUOTE ]

In SS's hypothetical hand, I got a Q on the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

this is a STT forum though, and this hand is marginal at best and very early in the sng. most of us try to avoid this situation. i might limp this preflop, but i definitely wouldnt even play this post flop. this is a very isolated and borderline situation and you shouldnt judge the forum's play because we wouldnt play this hand the way you would. like i said, this move is better served later on in the sng, but if you keep making this move, you will never be able to play it in a situation where it would most benefit you.

got ya lol...

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You didn't answer the question that was most important to your cause...

[ QUOTE ]
Lets say you raise his bet to 200 (140 back to him)as you mentioned. He cold calls you and the turn is a Q. He checks.... action? the pot is 490 now. What if he bets 200 into the pot on the turn instead of checking?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is soooooo important that you know what you will do before it happens. At least should have an idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would push. I don't put villian on an 8. If he calls, I put him on a pp lower than Q, in which case my hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why a raise on the flop is bad. Even if you connect the turn you are behind too often. You are way ahead or way behind here. You will unlikely double up to a moron and will get called ever single time by 8x.

You want situations you can take down a cheap flop. A minraise on the flop is much more effective then a bet to 200 imo.

Play the way you want. Almost everyone has pointed out reasons to get away from this hand, but you dont want to believe any of them.

At the 33s I see this as FPS. at the 55s it is iffy. At the 109s you need to start thinking more about hands like this, but not yet.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
I should also say that if the villian is aggressive enough to bet an 8 on the flop, they most likely won't turn into a passive slow player when I show strength. This is why I don't put the villian on an 8 after that hypothetical situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have the 8 as the BB. I do just that. You showed me that you are willing to possibly put all your chips at risk. There is no draw on the board. I cold call your flop raise and check the turn to you. If you bet, I push. If you check, I value bet the river.

The way you are playing you dont find out if he has an 8 unless you pay him. If you catch you are willing to risk everything that he doesnt have an 8 and that he doesnt have your 2pair beat in another way.

You said you were willing to get away from the hand If you caught.

You cleary are not able to get away at all.

[zipppy]

[quote
This is why a raise on the flop is bad. Even if you connect the turn you are behind too often. You are way ahead or way behind here. You will unlikely double up to a moron and will get called ever single time by 8x.


[/ QUOTE ]
In case you missed it, or choose to ignore my second response...
"I should also say that if the villian is aggressive enough to bet an 8 on the flop, they most likely won't turn into a passive slow player when I show strength. This is why I don't put the villian on an 8 after that hypothetical situation. "

[ QUOTE ]

You want situations you can take down a cheap flop. A minraise on the flop is much more effective then a bet to 200 imo.


[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to think that small raises are ineffective, because it's soooo easy for Ax to call a min raise, but not a pot sized raise.

[ QUOTE ]

Play the way you want. Almost everyone has pointed out reasons to get away from this hand, but you dont want to believe any of them.


[/ QUOTE ]
I believe I have agreed with many things people have said. I'm just playing the devils advocate to provoke thought.

[ QUOTE ]

At the 33s I see this as FPS. at the 55s it is iffy. At the 109s you need to start thinking more about hands like this, but not yet.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is probably a very important perspective. For those that play higher levels, do people regularly bluff at flops like the one posted? How do you respond? (esp. since you start with more chips)

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I should also say that if the villian is aggressive enough to bet an 8 on the flop, they most likely won't turn into a passive slow player when I show strength. This is why I don't put the villian on an 8 after that hypothetical situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I have the 8 as the BB. I do just that. You showed me that you are willing to possibly put all your chips at risk. There is no draw on the board. I cold call your flop raise and check the turn to you. If you bet, I push. If you check, I value bet the river.

The way you are playing you dont find out if he has an 8 unless you pay him. If you catch you are willing to risk everything that he doesnt have an 8 and that he doesnt have your 2pair beat in another way.

You said you were willing to get away from the hand If you caught.

You cleary are not able to get away at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said I was willing to get away, because I do think you're wrong about most opponents with an 8 here. I'm willing to get away because opponents agressive enough to raise will reraise, and MOST will not bet at all on the flop, especially at the 33s.


Edit: what I am trying to say is that I'm only "unable to get away" if you are correct about the villians probable course of action.

Hey Zip, I see this hand turning into this:

Link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3781568&page=2&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Different situation, same title /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[zipppy]

Also, in your situation the villian bet 200. He didn't check to me.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
In case you missed it, or choose to ignore my second response...
"I should also say that if the villian is aggressive enough to bet an 8 on the flop, they most likely won't turn into a passive slow player when I show strength. This is why I don't put the villian on an 8 after that hypothetical situation. "

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt miss it...
I just disagree. I think someone with an 8 will often play it exactly that way. By betting his 8 and then going passive he gets you to think exactly what he wants you to think. You arent the only person that knows about 2nd level thinking.

Good and bad players both like to be sneaky at times. Bad players more often then good at the 33s.

[ QUOTE ]
I believe I have agreed with many things people have said. I'm just playing the devils advocate to provoke thought

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats my job

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, in your situation the villian bet 200. He didn't check to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

no in my situation he bets 60 then you pop him back to 200 (140 to him) He calls your raise then checks the turn. Really his turn action isnt important. The moment he calls your flop raise you should go into submission and caution.

[durron597]

My cards beat his chips into the middle.

[graydot]

Haven't read any of the posts above.

I would raise preflop 3x the blind, I like KQs, that being said, if villian calls me and checks, I either check 50% or bet 50%, if the villian bets into me, I would pop a small re-raise, laying it down to another reraise or a check call on turn

[Jbrochu]

This specific hand (early, no read, etc.) I would always fold.

The same situation but with a read on villian as aggressive I can see calling hoping to either hit a K or Q on the turn, or stealing on the turn if villian shows any sign of weakness.

I would not often re-raise villians flop raise. I think it's cheaper and easier to call and try to steal on the turn.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, in your situation the villian bet 200. He didn't check to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

no in my situation he bets 60 then you pop him back to 200 (140 to him) He calls your raise then checks the turn. Really his turn action isnt important. The moment he calls your flop raise you should go into submission and caution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I didn't see the first part of your post. I read the "what if he bets 200 instead". If he checked to me, I'd either value bet or check.

[zipppy]

[ QUOTE ]
You're trying to be fancy. You do not need to be fancy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just had a work meeting where I learned about electronic time cards. In other words, I had time to think about this hand/situation.

I think for this specific hand (given the blinds, no reads, buyin level), this is probably FPS. I'm not saying the bettor may have an 8, because I don't think they do, but this is a tough spot to buy a pot without a read.

I do, however, still think it's important to recognize situations like this where the villian is trying to represent a hand they don't have. When these spots are found, your hand becomes less important than whether or not they'll fold if you show strength.

more to come...i have another work meeting...