KK limp-call and some more weirdplay

[sthief09]

PP 30 10-handed, I limp KK UTG, pretty tight/pretty passive (don't remember off hand but I think he was something like 25/7/1.1) raises it, loose guy calls in the BB, I just call (bad?)

Flop J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players, 6.5 SB)

BB checks, I check, UTG+1 bets, BB folds, I raise, UTG+1 3-bets, I call intending to checkraise the turn.

Turn A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. (2 players, 6.25 BB) I figure he has AA, JJ, AJ, QQ, or TT here and that he'll raise a better hand but call a worse ond, and check behind a worse one if I check, so I bet, he raises, and I fold


EDIT: I had my reasons to limp reraise (there were 2 super LAGs almost to my immediate left, and one on the button), so please no discussing that, but if you hate the call when it's back to me, I'd like to know why. I felt against a tightish, semi-thinking and likely scared player I'd let the cat out of the bag too early. a flop checkraise still doesn't make my hand transparent

[stoxtrader]

I can maybe justify the call HU vs a TAG, but 3 handed i cannot think or an arguement for not 3 betting.

[BottlesOf]

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I had my reasons to limp reraise (there were 2 super LAGs almost to my immediate left, and one on the button), so please no discussing that, but if you hate the call when it's back to me, I'd like to know why. I felt against a tightish, semi-thinking and likely scared player I'd let the cat out of the bag too early. a flop checkraise still doesn't make my hand transparent

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is exactly fair. I think you need to be open to ciriticism of the Limp re-raise, IF you are going to limp and then not re-raise for some reason when you have the opportunity to do so. I don't like just calling when it's back to you for cat out of bag reasons. You do have 2 opponents at this point as well.

The only reason I can think of for not re-raising is so to get position for a c/r on the expensive streets. But then you blew that by c/ring the flop.

[flawless_victory]

basically, that PF "just call" is nasty... IME reraising here with KK will not kill your action... everyone is suspicious... they will put you on AK/BS, not too mention you are soo far ahead of the BB, you must take that free money while you still can.
flop is an ez cap, i think. youre counting on too many things going right and getting waaaay too fancy OOP.... even if things go perfect, i still think you are often gonna make more jamming.
cap the flop, call down if raised.

Preflop: When the BB calls, you must reraise, the pot is now big enough where you dont mind letting the cat out of the bag. Flop: given the way you played it I like the checkraise, being out of position in a 3 handed pot, I think its best to take control right away, so the villain never has a chance to take a free card. Turn: I understand why you took the line you took, and everything makes sense, but I still hate it. I dont like the bet fold to a raise lines HU online. You have a decent showdown hand and at this point you should be trying to get to that showdown as cheaply as possible. Your opponent could still be raising QQ for a free showdown or he could be getting out of line with TT,99,KQ, but thats not really my point. When your heards up on the turn with a decent hand out of position in a nice sized pot, online, you should be playing your hand in such a way where you cannot get outplayed off the better hand. This means I like checking and calling the turn and river more than betting and folding to a raise. Checking and calling will cause you to lose an extra bet when behind, but betting and folding only needs to cost you the post a small percentage of times to make it the inferior strategy.
In real life, it is alot easier to take bet/fold lines, but not online when you have something to show down, thats my opinion.

[PokerBob]

I don't think the limp/rr will "let the cat out of the bag" too soon so to speak. Maybe the 30 plays much more honestly, but limp/rr'ing seems to mean many things, not merely monsters. If he flops a draw or top pair, he is coming along, even if he fears the worst as you will have priced him into the pot.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: I had my reasons to limp reraise (there were 2 super LAGs almost to my immediate left, and one on the button), so please no discussing that, but if you hate the call when it's back to me, I'd like to know why. I felt against a tightish, semi-thinking and likely scared player I'd let the cat out of the bag too early. a flop checkraise still doesn't make my hand transparent

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is exactly fair. I think you need to be open to ciriticism of the Limp re-raise, IF you are going to limp and then not re-raise for some reason when you have the opportunity to do so. I don't like just calling when it's back to you for cat out of bag reasons. You do have 2 opponents at this point as well.

[/ QUOTE ]



you misread. I don't want opinions on the limp because I know some people are massively opposed to limp-reraising and I don't really care why. I DID want to hear opinions on the call, which apparently sucked, so I'm glad I asked

[sthief09]

ok I'm glad I posted this because I often don't 3-bet it when it's 3 way.

is postflop ok with everyone?

[imported_CaseClosed326]

Interesting play. I like the turn fold the way you played it.

3 way I would LRR this, it was the plan we you started why not finish it off?

On a side note. I don't know how everyone else feels about this but I hate being LRRed. I always remember people who LRR me and it ticks me off and makes me want to go to a show down more often than I would in a normal situation. So maybe the LRR has good metagame posiblites.

[sthief09]

you're right. it's funny how we change things around in our heads depending on the situation. if I was UTG+1 and this guy limp-reraised me I'd think he was maybe FOS. but when I do it, all of a sudden I tell him automatically that I have AA or KK.

[sthief09]

if the flop was ragged, I would've waited. I felt a jack high flop offered some opportunity to get some excess action.

[BottlesOf]

I don't think I misread, either you misread my post, I'm not being clear, or my point is retarded....I think I'm going with door number 3.

(Just that a LRR isn't bad but an LRR can be bad if there's a chance something can happen which will lead to a lack of RR when someone else Rs) I think we're saying the same thing...please ignore me.

[bone77]

so there's no way he's raising QQ here on the turn? if not, then great laydown. but the problem i see here is cause you've done such a great job of illdefining your hand on all streets that he'll take your turn bet as weakness, which it is, if he's half smart. what are you trying to represent with that ace? AJ? no, you'd try to checkraise him with that. from his point of view there is no way that ace helped you, hence his QQ's are good. or maybe i'm giving him too much credit.