Does this count as winning a fight?

[ftball0000]

I figured a post this good needed a poll /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Acomplished Goal #2 of 3 college thread. Very Funny (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3777042&page=0&view=expan ded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=all&vc=1)

While reading it I agreed with alot of people, using mace doesn't count as winning a fight... I thought it was for vaginas.

Now it's you're turn to vote

[diebitter]

Just finding a little guy to beat up doesn't count as a fight, mace or not.

There's no way it counts. He needs to do that goal over if he's ever going to be able to face himself again. Maybe he can kill two birds with one stone and pee on himself during a fight?

[Vavavoom]

[ QUOTE ]
Just finding a little guy to beat up doesn't count as a fight, mace or not.



[/ QUOTE ]

I thought he was a p*ssy before for using mace in a fight he started and I still think it...

So he's 1 for 3 at the moment... The pissing ain't happening for a while once the chick who took the money shot has told everyone about his "Stinky Penis" !

[MrTrik]

100% pussy. I bet he ran before the guy got the mace outta his eyes.

[ScottyP431]

In one of the final episodes of the practice, Jimmy is having trouble with like local mobsters and they confront him in a small room and he maces one of them. They made it look like the mobsters where trying to kill him. After he maced one of them they both stopped their advances and just staired at him dumb struck. Then one of them said something like "Jimmy, hit me with a bat, shoot me with a gun and kill me, but mace? You dishonor the neighberhood".

This was all i could think of when i read this dudes original psot

Fighting is about winning, and winning is measured in who went to the hospital.

So if you sprayed the guy down with mace, I hope you took the next step of stomping him when he's writhing on the ground gasping for air and clutching his eyes.

If you dont use weapons available to you in a fight, you are stupid. I promise that if you fight me, I'm going to try to [censored] kill you, so you better be doing the same to me.

[Pyromaniac]

OP in the other thread got this all wrong--the instructions were clearly to pick a fight with a complete stranger and lose...

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[RunDownHouse]

I don't think everyone is thinking this through. How is this different than using any other non-lethal weapon? Say you got into a fight and took a bat out of your backseat or trunk. You might not be fighting "fair" when you bust out the bat, but everyone would pretty much agree that you won the fight.

If a fight was never initiated - he walked up and just maced the kid - that's one thing. But if the kid shoved, threw a punch, whatever, then its a fight, and the OP won. He didn't fight in a gentlemanly manner, but then again, I wouldn't either in a street fight.

I would think he set that goal because he wanted the satisfaction of pummeling someone, so I don't understand how he accomplishes that when he uses mace and then pummels them. But there's no doubt in my mind that it was a fight, and OP clearly won.

[Los Feliz Slim]

Was it a fight? Yes.

Did Mapplethorpe win the fight? Yes.

It shouldn't be sufficient for his "goals", but look who you're talking about, people.

[diebitter]

You think it was a 2-way thing? I just read between the lines, assumed he wanted himself to sound good coming out of it so built up the nature of the little guy (I laughed at 'tough-looking' or whatever it was) and also assumed he'd picked on some little geek who offered frail resistance or was trying to run away (== 'come at me' - hehehe), got him in a head-lock, maced him, and just beat him.

I think we'd have got more detail if it was really a 2-way thing.

It's not a fight.

[The once and future king]

Yes but then again the non lethal weapon seems like an arbitrary distinction. If someone punches you and you pull a gun and shoot them non lethaly, (or lethaly for that matter) have you won a fight?

[ScottyP431]

Actually, you are not thinking this through. Using a bat vs an unarmed opponent does not = winning a fight. Did you beat the other guy down? Yes. It was not a fight.

Implicit in fighting, especially when you initiate hostilities as the op did, is a social contract of fairness. Going around picking fights only to then use a weapon of some kind violates said social contract. Its like hitting other speed skaters at the olympics to knock them down. It's cheating. And cheaters never win. You're argument boils down to justifying me saying i beat michael jordan 1 on 1 cause i hit him in the knee Tania harding style and then ran circles around him as he lay on the floor unable to move/crying.

But more importantly, the use of mace degrades the entire notion of a masculine test of manhood which is obviously what he is going for (whether you agree with it or not) when he says his goal is to win a fight. If you provoke someone smaller than you into a fight, and then use a headlock and mace, you have lost a lot more than just the fight, and you have won nothing (though you have been entered into the biggest douche in the universe contest,so you could still win that)

[steelcmg]

He forgot to mention that he probably got his ass kicked the next day after the dude was able to see.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we'd have got more detail if it was really a 2-way thing.

It's not a fight.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll have to go back and re-read it, but I thought he made it pretty clear that the little dude made physical contact somehow. If he just walked up to him and put him in a headlock, then I agree, but if it was clear that a physical confrontation was inevitable and immediate, then its a fight.

[ QUOTE ]
If someone punches you and you pull a gun and shoot them non lethaly, (or lethaly for that matter) have you won a fight?

[/ QUOTE ]
I draw a distinction between a fight and a murder. If you beat someone with a bat, its a fight. If you beat them to death, its a murder. The difference is important enough to warrant legislation.

[jaydub]

There is no social contract in a fight. Your analogies do not apply because there are no rules in a fight. If you doubt this then you probably have not been in many fights.

[Clarkmeister]

I'd like to note that I have no idea who that poster is, yet he was already on my ignore list from some unrecalled previous transgression. The system works!

[diebitter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think we'd have got more detail if it was really a 2-way thing.

It's not a fight.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll have to go back and re-read it, but I thought he made it pretty clear that the little dude made physical contact somehow. If he just walked up to him and put him in a headlock, then I agree, but if it was clear that a physical confrontation was inevitable and immediate, then its a fight.


[/ QUOTE ]

If he cornered a little guy, then little guy must make physical contact, especially if OP deliberately blocks his exit. Or a scared little geek could be provoked enough to do a little wimpy push back without too much effort, I'd say?

I do agree if little guy was aggressive, then it is a fight - but I just don't read the subtext of the OP that way at all.

However, this is geting too speculative, so shall we just agree to differ?

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Implicit in fighting, especially when you initiate hostilities as the op did, is a social contract of fairness.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, this is the fallacy. We even had a thread on this not too long ago. There is no structure to a street fight. There's no concept of "fairness." The bullshit chest bumping and posturing that prefaces many fights is ridiculous, and the second you "step up" in my face, making it clear that you want a fight, I'm going to clock you. And then try to break your hand/wrist/arm while you're on the ground. That's precisely why there's a difference between a boxing match and a street fight, and that's where your basketball analogy breaks down. Boxing is given a defined structure which changes it from being a brawl to being a "fair" fight.

[ QUOTE ]
But more importantly, the use of mace degrades the entire notion of a masculine test of manhood which is obviously what he is going for (whether you agree with it or not) when he says his goal is to win a fight.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree that a test of manhood was what he "obviously" wanted, but if you'll read my post, I agree that winning the fight in that manner would provide no such satisfaction if that was indeed the ultimate goal.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Or a scared little geek could be provoked enough to do a little wimpy push back without too much effort, I'd say?

However, this is geting too speculative, so shall we just agree to differ?

[/ QUOTE ]
If so, then he has to accept the consequences of getting into a fight, whether they were forced on him or not.

But without further elaboration from OP - hardly an unbiased observer, unfortunately - you're right. Can't really tell what was going on.

[ QUOTE ]
Implicit in fighting... is the concept of survival at all costs

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

If you're talking about "social contracts", you havent been in many fights. Perhaps you're on a college campus where "fighting" means two drunken frat boys wrestling around the beer keg, but in the real world, fights are fast, nasty things.

I've been in 3 fights in my life. In two of them, the other guy went to the hospital with a broken elbow and knee, respectively, and in the other fight, I got my ass kicked badly until I managed to pull a knife. I deployed the blade, made a quick reverse slash that missed, and the other guy decided to disengage at that point.

Looking for fights like your friend did is just plain stupid, because some day he's going to pick a fight with a guy who is going to cut his goddamn throat open or cap him at contact distance with a pistol.

[ScottyP431]

You are wrong, this isnt vietnam, there are rules. People who get into a lot of fights do have a lot of unwritten rules like no weapons, not continuing to pummel someone after they are unconscious etc. Violation of these rules normally results in outside intervention, such as friends stopping the fight. In fact, the last fight i saw involving several random strangers who happend to be playing at the same basketball court, there was actually a pause right before the fight when one of the people basically asked for a rules clarification (technically he asked if any of the "fags" were going to "grab his jock" during the fight) and his friends said it was unnecesary, people knew the rules(something like "even fags know whats what" is what he actually said), then there was a pretty brutal 4 on 4 throwdown. No one used weapons.

It doesnt take a genius to figure out using mace is cheating.

[Pyromaniac]

Isn't this sort of like deciding your goal is to "be a hero"--and then looking for some kid to push into the lake so you can save him from drowning?

[RunDownHouse]

I hope you don't end up in the hospital for believing everyone abides by these "rules."

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
I promise that if you fight me, I'm going to try to [censored] kill you, so you better be doing the same to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're so tough.

It's clear you're not a fighter.

[ QUOTE ]
You are wrong, this isnt vietnam, there are rules. People who get into a lot of fights do have a lot of unwritten rules like no weapons, not continuing to pummel someone after they are unconscious etc. Violation of these rules normally results in outside intervention, such as friends stopping the fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, you've been hanging out with too many middle class/college educated folks, and you just dont understand how sociopathic the criminal element is in our society. Just because you would not pull a weapon out there does not mean that other people won't.

Check out some of these videos. Fight videos (http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?t=24711) I particularly remember the one called "skater beats guy with skateboard" because it shows how antisocial some people really are. The guy who got his ass beaten got to live only because the antisocial skater punk chose not to kill him.

If you dont think fights are deadly serious business--and potentially life ending--you are in denial. Your best option for personal security is a lifelong committment to avoidance, de-escalation, and deterrence. But when those tactics fail, you have to be ready to use your hands, a knife, or a gun.

[vulturesrow]

That fight video link along makes this thread worthwhile. I cant get the skater video to work though. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I promise that if you fight me, I'm going to try to [censored] kill you, so you better be doing the same to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're so tough.

It's clear you're not a fighter.

[/ QUOTE ]
Someone pulling a knife in a fight - like Despot did - is exactly why I said I would do my best to break my opponents hands/wrists/arms.

I can't believe people are so blase about fights. Rather, I can believe it, but I'm a bit irked that people can be so naive about it even when the obvious is pointed out.

[ QUOTE ]
exactly why I said I would do my best to break my opponents hands/wrists/arms.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are obviously, like me, trained as a ground fighter. When I was a kid, I used to believe that chokes and control/submission techniques were the best to use, because they were so effective in the dojo/competition. They certainly have their place, but groundfighting, unless you have a partner with you, is incredibly dangerous in multiple attacker encounters. Moreover, a guy isn't going to be able to use a knife (or armlock for that matter) if his eyes are rolling back in their sockets, and his jaw is hanging loosely from your "lights out" elbow strike. So bottom line, in a fight, there's nothing better than a big fat guy pummelling some guy's head until he falls to the ground, then kicking him in the grape until he's out cold. Ive seen it happen several times. It's a disappointing fact for small guys like me, but size and strength overcome training in most fights. Weapons are equalizers.

[Cancer Merchant]

This is clearly Scenario B (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=3717305) . Mr. Mission Accomplished is lucky his nutsack didn't become the other guy's speedbag. If there were any justice, he'd be singing soprano for a week.

[Exitonly]

He didnt go and pick the fight with the kid, he said the kid starrted with him. Granted he did want to get into a fight.

and it may have been a cheap way to win, but he still won the fight.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I promise that if you fight me, I'm going to try to [censored] kill you, so you better be doing the same to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're so tough.

It's clear you're not a fighter.

[/ QUOTE ]
Someone pulling a knife in a fight - like Despot did - is exactly why I said I would do my best to break my opponents hands/wrists/arms.

I can't believe people are so blase about fights. Rather, I can believe it, but I'm a bit irked that people can be so naive about it even when the obvious is pointed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point is that most of the fights I've seen or been involved in are started by some drunk a-hole in a bar. No one deserves to die and no one should go to prison.
Enough of this high school "I don't fight - I kill" crap. If you're willing to go to prison over some guy talking sh*t about the Red Sox or whatever and taking a swing at you, you've got serious problems.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
My point is that most of the fights I've seen or been involved in are started by some drunk a-hole in a bar.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think DespotInExile is a) a myth, b) very rare, c) uncommon, or d) common?

Obviously its pretty dependent on context - and I think his quote "I will [censored] kill you" was exaggeration - but I'd say the answer is close enough to c) for me not want to take any chances, even in a place as tame as Demonbreun.

For Despot: what were the legal consequences when you sent those two guys to the hospital?

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
Mapplethorpe

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. good one.

[Andrew Fletcher]

This guy sounds like the biggest dick ever. It's truly amazing.

In the case of the broken arm, the guy was arrested. (I intervened after he attacked a woman in an elevator.)

In the case of the broken knee, there was no consequence because I left the scene of the fight with him lying on the ground moaning.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that most of the fights I've seen or been involved in are started by some drunk a-hole in a bar.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think DespotInExile is a) a myth, b) very rare, c) uncommon, or d) common?

Obviously its pretty dependent on context - and I think his quote "I will [censored] kill you" was exaggeration - but I'd say the answer is close enough to c) for me not want to take any chances, even in a place as tame as Demonbreun.

For Despot: what were the legal consequences when you sent those two guys to the hospital?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you are referring to about DespotInExile. I obviously missed a thread.
I'm not saying there aren't times your life is in danger. I'm just saying that in 5 years bouncing nearly all the fights were not in that category, yet the people involved were always talking about killing each other/trying to stab each other with broken beer bottles etc. over the silliest things.

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
In the case of the broken arm, the guy was arrested. (I intervened after he attacked a woman in an elevator.)

In the case of the broken knee, there was no consequence because I left the scene of the fight with him lying on the ground moaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is my point. You won the fight and then it was over.

I dont know what type of establishment you bounced at, but I have known a number of bouncers, most of whom have been stabbed or cut at least once. Its a crap job, and I wouldn't do it for any amount of money. (Mind you, bouncing is a very controlled environment. You guys have the numbers, and when 6 ginormous guys swarm on two guys fighting, the fight gets over fast. Random street violence occurs in a much less controlled environment, e.g., after a traffic accident when one guy is agitated.)

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know what type of establishment you bounced at, but I have known a number of bouncers, most of whom have been stabbed or cut at least once. Its a crap job, and I wouldn't do it for any amount of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been cut, concussed, etc. but never stabbed, etc.
I chalk it up to youthful stupidity.
I guess I'm sensitized to some comments because I knew patrons and bouncers that would have this attitude of "If we're fighting I'm trying to kill..." and I was amazed by it.
Some of the bouncers went to prison because of their enthusiasm for the job and I can't believe someone would throw away their life for something so stupid as a barfight.
(Again, I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions where your life is really in danger)

[Boris]

The only answer is yes. Think about it. If you were talking smack to the little twerp, then he puts you in a headlock, maces you, and beats on you for a couple of minutes - would you go back and tell your friends about how you kicked his ass? Hell no.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
I draw a distinction between a fight and a murder. If you beat someone with a bat, its a fight. If you beat them to death, its a murder. The difference is important enough to warrant legislation.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this does not abswer the question of just shooting them non lethaly. If I pull a gun and incapicitate someone with it, is this the same as using a baseball bat to do the same thing. If I do so have I won a fight?

[Rduke55]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My point is that most of the fights I've seen or been involved in are started by some drunk a-hole in a bar.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you think DespotInExile is a) a myth, b) very rare, c) uncommon, or d) common?

Obviously its pretty dependent on context - and I think his quote "I will [censored] kill you" was exaggeration - but I'd say the answer is close enough to c) for me not want to take any chances, even in a place as tame as Demonbreun.

For Despot: what were the legal consequences when you sent those two guys to the hospital?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just caught the Demonbreun reference. I was all like "There's a street here named that!"a and then I looked at your location.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In the case of the broken arm, the guy was arrested. (I intervened after he attacked a woman in an elevator.)

In the case of the broken knee, there was no consequence because I left the scene of the fight with him lying on the ground moaning.

[/ QUOTE ]

See, this is my point. You won the fight and then it was over.

[/ QUOTE ]

A few things.

1. I am not a criminal. I have no desire to hurt people. I dont look for fights, and I personally would not have stomped the guy's head once he's on the ground because it wasn't necessary to my survival. On the other hand, with the case of the guy in the elevator, after I took him to the ground, slammed his head into the cement a few times to stun him, and slipped into an armbar, I felt him still resist me, at which point I decided to break his elbow and end the fight. It was a very conscious decision on my part. I laid on the armbar and he relaxed--this is the sign you have good control. Then he got squirrely on me and started pulling back a little, so I decided to take his arm out of the fight just to be sure.

2. Criminals and sociopaths do exist. Fortunately, I have met very few of them. But did you watch the skateboard video I linked to? That guy was hurting people, destroying property, for fun. He's a sicko. I have no doubt he'll end up in prison doing time (if he hasn't already), but he's going to seriously hurt people along the way. Notice how quickly the violence came on. Little posturing, chest thumping. He saw an opportunity, so he clocked the guy with the skateboard. When the guy went down, he kept clocking him. Then he kicked him a few times in the head for good measure. Stuff like this happens ALL THE TIME. If you're disoriented, seeing stars, balled up on the ground, some guys will stop hurting you, but some guys will use this as the chance to finish you. In my opinion, if you're on the ground and you're stunned from having taken some hard headshots, the fight becomes a lethal force encounter. You need to use anything you can to survive--a knife, a gun, a stick, whatever. This is what I meant when I said "fighting is about survival".

[ QUOTE ]
But this does not abswer the question of just shooting them non lethaly. If I pull a gun and incapicitate someone with it, is this the same as using a baseball bat to do the same thing. If I do so have I won a fight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pulling a gun out is a whole different ball game from a bat. Way worse for you in legal terms. Plus shooting someone is ridiculously lillegal, except for very few circumstances. You'd have to prove that your life was in imminent danger and the ONLY way to save yourself was to shoot the guy.

I doutb the jury will change their min din any way considering you went for a "non lethal" shot (which there are almost 0 in hte body, almost any gun shot wound is potentially fatal)

[imported_The Vibesman]

Having read the story and it's limited details, I'd have to say this is more on the "attack" than "fight" variety.

[ScottyP431]

I will say i believe most fights are not life threatening. Most fights erupt over things like drunkeness at bars or disagreements in pick up basketball games. Very few of these people die. Most people who get in fights are not hardend criminals. People who know each other are statistically more likely to fight than strangers. . When Friends/brothers get into fights there are rules of engagement. Ask anyone who comes from a family of 4 or more boys, no one is pulling a knife there. These norms spill over to society. Most people who get into fights are not lone psychotic individuals, they are people out with friends, and those friends put peer pressure on them to "defend their rep bro". These fights do not break out into arms races. Defending a woman who is being attacked from a rapist is clearly not what the OP was talking about when he said he wanted to go out and win a fight. You people need to stick to the subject. Most criminals i have met do not use weapons as they do not want to go back to jail. Do people break these rules sometimes? yes. Does that mean these kind of norms don't exist? no. R duke hit the nail on the head here. Most people dont want to kill /go to jail over the red socks or someone repeatedly charging them. They are sometimes willing to throw a few punches over it though. It is highly unlikely that when you fight John Q at a pickup basketball game that he will try and kill you with 40 odd other people around. You people are constructing exagerated hypothetical situations to justify your "id try and kill him cause he's trying to kill me " mentality. In fact i would say the exact opposite is true of your "middle class " argument. Most of the people who i know who have taken things to far/used weapons are upper class assholes who
1, have no experience with violence
2, believe they can get away with anything.
Your claim is obviously ill informed and most likely motivated by classism.
People who get in lots of fights know using a weapon will result in
1, uncontrolled escalation- once you pull a knife all bets are off, you could easily get shot/gang beat.
2, Retaliation- if you pull a knife on someone in an otherwise fair fight, odds go up astronomically that later on when you aren't expecting it there will be retaliation.
3, Jail- there is a huge differance in both liklihood to be prosecuted and ultimate jail time between assault and assault with a deadly weapon.

Most as you say "criminals" are not psychotic and are in fact pretty smart about fighting. This discussion i dont think is mainly about criminals, it's about the average population. I stand by my previous comment, if you start a fight with someone and then pull a weapon on them that is seriously f'ed up. If you are getting beat up and you pull a weapon because you are losing thats messed up as well. Arguably less so if you verbally submit and the other person does not stop, but still, you got into a fight, you should have considered the fact that you could lose beforehand.
In response to fight videos on the internet, shut up. Are you making a serious argument here? There are plenty of underground fighting rings that have rules, i also direct you to a movie called fight club... Seriously this point does nothing in this argument. This dude attacked someone. He did not have a "fight".

"their are rules to basketball, not to fights"

Please direct me to the official website for 1 on 1 street basketball rules. 90 percent of the fights i have seen have resulted from things like pick up sports games escalating.

[-Skeme-]

It wasn't even a fight. It was a setup. If the guy swung on him and then he maced him, sure, still pussy, but at least it was a real fight. He said the guy just came at him arguing.

[jaydub]

Wow, that must have taken some time to write out. Too bad it's completely [censored] drivel.

[ScottyP431]

Ha ha ha! Oh gosh that's funny! That's really funny! Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. You know, I've, I've never heard anyone make that joke before. Hmm. You're the first. And, and yet you've taken that and used it out of context to insult me in this everyday situation. God what a clever, smart girl you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. That's so fresh too. Any, any Titanic jokes you want to throw at me too as long as we're hitting these phenomena at the height of their popularity? God you're so funny!

[jaydub]

I have no clue what you are talking about nor did I intend to make a joke.

Your previous post was simply wrong on so many levels and in so many ways that it was complete trash.

[ScottyP431]

Than make an argument instead of posting "this is stupid" to inflate your post count

[MonkeeMan]

The OP is a pussy. His #1 goal should be to grow a pair.

[raisins]

This thread is a whole bunch of confusion.

Some people consider fighting to have the connotation of duelling. Other people think that fight is an all inclusive word for any sort of physical violence. Most who think there is anything manly about fighting look at it as duelling which implies some rules. Let's pretend that RedLightCruiser's post is non-fiction. He said he wanted to win a fight, not beat the hell out of someone; beating the hell out of someone is what he actually accomplished. Win implies a contest, it implies an equal (more or less) start. I think it's pretty clear there was no contest here just a set-up. Do snipers win their fights? I don't think they talk like that. They reduce their targets. This was an assault.

Pretty funny post though.

raisins

[imported_The Vibesman]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread is a whole bunch of confusion.

Some people consider fighting to have the connotation of duelling. Other people think that fight is an all inclusive word for any sort of physical violence. Most who think there is anything manly about fighting look at it as duelling which implies some rules. Let's pretend that RedLightCruiser's post is non-fiction. He said he wanted to win a fight, not beat the hell out of someone; beating the hell out of someone is what he actually accomplished. Win implies a contest, it implies an equal (more or less) start. I think it's pretty clear there was no contest here just a set-up. Do snipers win their fights? I don't think they talk like that. They reduce their targets. This was an assault.

Pretty funny post though.

raisins

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree exactly with this. NH.

[Blarg]

I've gotta read another post to make sense of this post? Count me out.

[Reef]

I wouldn't call it a fight. more like a 'struggle'