... No Ace No Ace... Hmmm, an Ace

[bigt439]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t980)
UTG (t3155)
MP1 (t350)
MP2 (t1035)
CO (t2170)
Hero (t835)
SB (t1475)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t275</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls t175.

Flop: (t625) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets t50</font>, Hero calls t50.

Turn: (t725) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets t325</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

Kind of a weird hand. Comments on all streets appreciated. Thoughts to follow. No real reads. Starting to 8-table, so reads are a little harder to come by.

[Hornacek]

I'm either folding or raising that flop. I need more information.

[kevstreet]

The flop bet of 50 into 600 is a little weakish, I may have raised. If he calls I proceed w/ caution, if he re-raises I let it go. Boy, doesn't it seem that the Ace comes every time when you have Kings.

[bigt439]

I want to say right now that I absolutely hate a flop raise. Doesn't mean I'm right, but man I don't like it.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to say right now that I absolutely hate a flop raise. Doesn't mean I'm right, but man I don't like it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? I think the flop raise is the cheapest way to see if he has an ace or not. By just calling, you almost announce to him that you don't have an ace. His turn bet could mean a wide variety of things. And it is now very expensive to see if he's got that ace.

[tigerite]

I'd just push preflop to be honest. You'll be called loads of times by stuff you have smashed. Especially by a t2170 stack.

And if not, well, I'll take the t175 in the pot, and thanks very much for coming. It is after all over 20% of your stack.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just push preflop to be honest. You'll be called loads of times by stuff you have smashed. Especially by a t2170 stack.

And if not, well, I'll take the t175 in the pot, and thanks very much for coming. It is after all over 20% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe if the villian's original raise had been 3xBB then yea, push. But I don't like pushing after his minraisee. I don't think it's extracting maximum value. Although I admit 275 is a bit weak. Something like 350-400 is good.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just push preflop to be honest. You'll be called loads of times by stuff you have smashed. Especially by a t2170 stack.

And if not, well, I'll take the t175 in the pot, and thanks very much for coming. It is after all over 20% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

[tigerite]

Normally people who have t2170 by level 3 are donks. (Not always, I know, but it tends to be one LAG that's got lucky) if this is the case, what does a push by you register as in his mind?

"AK or AQ, I have AK/small pair, I call"

That's the main reason I'd do it, because of the guy's stack size. Obviously if he's proven to be a sensible player who's acquired his chips normally, then ok, a raise to 350 or whatever would be better. Just understand that raising that much means you're putting the rest in on the flop/turn even if an Ace comes.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd just push preflop to be honest. You'll be called loads of times by stuff you have smashed. Especially by a t2170 stack.

And if not, well, I'll take the t175 in the pot, and thanks very much for coming. It is after all over 20% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I just shove it in here pre flop, too. Hero's stack is just a bad size for making a reraise that isn't all in.

Just out of interest what's everyone's line after Hero raises the flop, villain calls and then checks the turn? What kind of sized bet are you making?

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
Just out of interest what's everyone's line after Hero raises the flop, villain calls and then checks the turn? What kind of sized bet are you making?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look at the pot size and hero's stack size. Any flop raise really must be allin.

my bad, not paying attention.

In that case, I'm pushing this preflop as well. with any decent sized preflop raise you're committing about 40% of your stack so it's all going in anyway.

[splashpot]

Damn....it seems like I've been wrong about 80% of the posts I've made recently. I guess it's part of the learning process.

[Nicholasp27]

preflop: poooosh...once he raised 100, u had to make a reraise that was too high a % of your stack (read: &gt;30%), so just push

flop: reraise his ass...he made a weak 50 into 625? he's got 2 clubs and wants to draw to it cheaply..or he's got an ace with a weakish kicker that he'll fold if u reraise him...or he hit 2nd or bottom pair...either way u have to push on the flop after not pushing pre-flop...the pot is bigger than ur remaining stack...any raise is too much of ur stack, just like the pf raise was too much of ur stack

putting 30+% of ur stack in without pushing gets u into these kinda sticky situations and lets them have more of a chance of beating u

[inyaface]

reads?
With none I fold.

[bigt439]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

The reason I posted this hand is because I really think I played this hand correctly, but something didn't feel right.

Preflop I really don't like pushing. I can appreciate the point that I'll get called sometimes and its much harder to play if I don't, but I think I'm leaving a bunch of value on the table. I consider myself to be a very good postflop player, but I don't know how much room I've really left myself to get away when I'm beat, so granted I usually get stacked when I'm outflopped, although sometimes I may lose less. I just feel like with such short stacks I can get this guy to put it in with almost anything postflop that it's worth the risk of not pushing preflop.

Also, on the flop, is no one else really happy he min bet? I think I'm ahead now a good portion of the time. This screams mid pair, and it also screams that there will be a turn follow up bet that is much bigger. I'm likely way behind an ace, or way ahead of a pocket pair, although the point about clubs is a good one (there just aren't that many club hands since the A is out).

My plan was to push over almost any turn bet unless something about the size or speed was telling. I pushed over the turn. Thoughts?

All of the above are just my opinions and I'm not completely sure of any of them, that's why I posted this, but I haven't been convinced my line isn't best yet.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
reads?
With none I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crossed my mind, but only briefly. You know I'm too wreckless for that. I don't think I can after what I read into the min bet (see my other reply), but that doesn't mean my read of the min bet was right.

[freemoney]

your line isnt best.

[kevstreet]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, on the flop, is no one else really happy he min bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

His weak bet was the first thing that jumped out at me and thus the raise suggestion although you have a shallow stack at this point so you mine as well shove here.

[bigt439]

Why if he'll follow up on the turn with a hand that is drawing very slim or has me beat (again a flush draw is a possibility though)?

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
your line isnt best.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you even play poker? I've never seen you give any advice ever.

[TWINUNO]

Any significant raise on the flop to get him to fold this hand will leave you damaged. Most people are not folding top pair, why would they call preflop then. Thats why you have to push preflop and hope he comes along. If he has an ace he had ace. If he called with a lower pair your making the decision alot harder by playing preflop esp when your 8 tabling.

[tigerite]

[ QUOTE ]
Any significant raise on the flop to get him to fold this hand will leave you damaged. Most people are not folding top pair, why would they call preflop then. Thats why you have to push preflop and hope he comes along. If he has an ace he had ace. If he called with a lower pair your making the decision alot harder by playing preflop esp when your 8 tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. And if I could get 20%+ of my stack added on for each time I had KK, without a showdown, I'd take that every day thanks. As should we all.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd just push preflop to be honest. You'll be called loads of times by stuff you have smashed. Especially by a t2170 stack.

And if not, well, I'll take the t175 in the pot, and thanks very much for coming. It is after all over 20% of your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

[freemoney]

it seems like you dont play enough if you think this is the best line.

[RobGW]

Reasons for pushing PF:
If CO folds, you get $175.
If CO calls, you get the opportunity to double up with what is likely to be a signifcant favorite. You also avoid having to play post flop if an A flops which as you can see can be quite difficult. You don't want to be in the position of calling a bet or folding the best hand when an A flops. Oh and 8 tabling makes this even easier push.

Put the difficult decisions on your opponent and most often they will make mistakes. Try to get cute and you'll be the one making a mistake. You didn't fold did you?

[freemoney]

thats not maximizing ur ev.

[Shillx]

By just calling, you almost announce to him that you don't have an ace.

This is exactly why you just call with an ace. You don't have enough $$$ behind to raise for information with KK here. If you raise, it should be all-in (but raising here is pointless IMO). He will fold something like 99 and call with AJ so raising does nothing for you. If you are going to put the $$$ in, let him do the betting since these bets will often times be small pocket pairs that hope you fold a larger under pocket.

The same is true for a hand like AK. The money is going in no matter how you play it if he has an ace, but a raise on the flop will just make him fold TT or whatever (granted some people will still call an all-in but you don't want to risk it). Just call and let him throw his money away with those hands.

Brad

[graydot]

Fold for lack of info..

I would def reraise him on the flop, why call 50 at all? Raise it to 150-200, if he calls he prob has an ace and I am check/fold all the way.

the 50 is usually a probe bet.

what the raise does for you:
1. Leavs you with some chips if he pushes all in here (you fold)
2. If he calls and bets the turn or river, fold it, most liekly has an ace, if he had a PP he would check/call it down
3. If he does not have an Ax he is likely to fold it here

[stupidsucker]

my general strategy for playing KK on the flop with an Ace HU is to cold call him down without a little more indication he has the Ace. This varies based on my stacksize and risk etc...

Often they are just as afraid of the ace as you are. I call his bet and I expect to see QQ or JJ.

[Nicholasp27]

convince me that it's ok to raise 33% of ur stack pf without pushing...

convince me that u have room to maneuver postflop after u've put over 30% of ur stack in preflop...

[graydot]

[ QUOTE ]
my general strategy for playing KK on the flop with an Ace HU is to cold call him down without a little more indication he has the Ace. This varies based on my stacksize and risk etc...

Often they are just as afraid of the ace as you are. I call his bet and I expect to see QQ or JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

If there is no indication that he has an ace, why wouldnt you raise it?

IMO cold calling KK with an A on the board is the worst thing you can do, unless its costing you less then %20 of yours chips and can afford it, still you should get info asap

[bigt439]

Hmmmm... this discussion is starting to go nowhere.

Thanks for all the input. The push preflop idea makes some sense, but I still prefer my preflop line because of how much value I can pick up when an ace doesn't flop. Even when one does flop there is room to double up here if he doesn't have an ace.

Raising the flop seems very silly to me and shillix wrote a good response as to why. Unless I get an unusually cheap showdown (i.e. he min bets all the way), I am fine getting all my money in here given his line and my pf action. Obviously I'm not thrilled, but this is only a problem when an ace flops, and I still don't see it as the huge problem other people think.

Anyways, I pushed, he typed in damn and called with JT /images/graemlins/club.gif. Really didn't feel like an ace. I also don't think he has clubs all that often, but usually a lower pair. An ace a fair amount of the time too.

Special thanks to freemoney for being a douchebag.

[stupidsucker]

[ QUOTE ]
If there is no indication that he has an ace, why wouldnt you raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]


That's easy...There is no way to know for sure...

If he has the Ace and I push I lose
If he has the ace and I call I lose
If he doesnt have the ace and I push, he folds
If he doesnt have the ace and I let him bet I get more chips.
If he draws out on me with a 2 outer because of my careless cold calling then oh well.

If I am wrong, I want to know.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If there is no indication that he has an ace, why wouldnt you raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]


If he draws out on me with a 2 outer because of my careless cold calling then oh well.

If I am wrong, I want to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, except that the coldcall isn't careless. It's carefully calculated. Just to clarify, although I'm sure you knew that.