Suckout Frustration

[sladgie]

I've been playing smallstakes holdem' for a few years now. I am at the point where I can't afford the bankroll for 3/6 or more, so I primarily play 2/4 or 1/2.

I am sure there have been previous posts much like this one but i am relatively new here so here we go.

I am at the point where I am on the verge of quitting poker altogether. I am not a trust fund baby and I don't like losing in anything and im here to make money. I have found that when i play 1/2 or lower , there are at least 2, usually 3 players on every table that play any 2 cards and call raises preflop with anything. They are not necessarily passive types either.

Every time i have good cards i get sucked out. I am not exaggerating. If i have KK they call me and win with J 3 o played UTG when the board is like 8 3 3 or something on the flop. This goes on hand after hand. They call every raise i make with quality cards regardless of what 2 they hold. If there were only one player like this on every table it might be manageable. So basicly they dont win anything individually, they just randomize the game to the point where the good player has no edge at all. In fact maybe by limiting my starting cards I am reducing my chance of winning to less than the usual random 10% of hands.

OK possible solutions: Totally change my approach?

For example always limp with big pairs and be prepared to fold any time there is action and i don't improve? Increase drastically the number of suited hands which i play?

My other question for the experienced 2/4 3/6 players. Do you think the number of suckouts goes down proportionately to the betting limit?? If i start to play just 2/4 instead of 1/2 is it going to get better? Same thing for 3/6 as opposed to 2/4?

Or do you routinely see the same thing even in the mid limit range?

Any comments of encouragement will be appreciated !

Thanks , Sladgie

[jason_t]

omg I'd quit if I were you you were just born unlucky and you have to accept that. Don't ever get married, she'll cheat on you. Killing yourself is the only way to avoid this.

I think "sladgie" is a troll.

[bakku]

omg i lost 7BB while reading this post, i'm going to go kill myself now.

also,

http://www.tmgnow.com/IMAGES/impact00.gif

[JinX11]

[ QUOTE ]
My other question for the experienced 2/4 3/6 players. Do you think the number of suckouts goes down proportionately to the betting limit?? If i start to play just 2/4 instead of 1/2 is it going to get better? Same thing for 3/6 as opposed to 2/4?


[/ QUOTE ]

I am an experienced 2/4 and 3/6 player. Yes, the suckout rate is inversely proportional to the betting limit. You should immediately move up to 100/200 of better. Everyone will respect your raises up there.

I choose to play at 2/4 and 3/6 rather than moving up because I prefer the suckouts.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sure there have been previous posts much like this one but i am relatively new here so here we go.

[/ QUOTE ]
There have been many posts like this - be prepared for the de facto response - like Jason, et al already provided. If you can't take this type of response for what it's worth - you're not ready for the 2+2 SS Forum community.

[ QUOTE ]
Any comments of encouragement will be appreciated!

[/ QUOTE ]
Encouragement - you're in the right place to learn how to play better and win at poker.

Comments - Drop down to the lowest level available and learn to beat it consistently. If you can't beat low-limit poker - you're not going to beat mid-/high-limit poker. Play better than your opponent and you'll come out ahead in the long run. You might move up and experience less suckouts playing 100/200 than you do at 1/2 but - the overall better quality of the average player at 100/200 is going to crush you in no time.

Last - in the future don't make posts like this. Online poker is not rigged. Low-limit poker IS beatable. Etc... Etc...

If you want advice about your game or a specific hand - then ask for it - it will be readily available to you hear. But I guarantee that no one is going to give you the time of day if you only make bitching posts about losing to suckouts and bad beats.

Good Luck,

Crunch

[@bsolute_luck]

i'll side step the sarcastically-typical comments of others and say:

poker is long term and you WILL win more than lose if you continue to learn/read/study. if you can't deal with the downswings, it may be best not to play.

i have found so far 2/4 is actually worse than 1/2 and it is probably even worse as you go up- why? because the lower the limit, the more people with crap will pay you off or fold if they have nothing. higher up: people are staying in with hands that either have a better chance of beating you or actually already have you beat.

[sladgie]

This is by far the "kindest" response I have had. Sorry for posting my stupid question. Is there a way I can unpost it so as not to bother everyone ??

[BoxTree]

[ QUOTE ]
This is by far the "kindest" response I have had. Sorry for posting my stupid question. Is there a way I can unpost it so as not to bother everyone ??

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry about deleting your post; if you're still around these forums in a few years, you'll look back on this post and have a good laugh. And...too much time has elapsed since the original post, so you can't delete it anyways.

Have you read SSHE (Small Stakes Hold 'em)?

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
So basicly they dont win anything individually, they just randomize the game to the point where the good player has no edge at all.

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the way you're reasoning you should be glad you don't have the bankroll for 3/6, since you're not preppared for that limit.

From your questions I see that you're interested in improving your game, so don't bother the posters who are being jerks. I'll try to give you some advice:

1.) If you haven't read SSH, read it! Judging from your post my guess is you have not or have been unable to digest what you've been reading. If the later is the case, re-read it.
2.) Continue to post and read advice given in this forum.

[ QUOTE ]
For example always limp with big pairs and be prepared to fold any time there is action and i don't improve? Increase drastically the number of suited hands which i play?

[/ QUOTE ]
The first question proves you have poor understanding of the game of poker. Suited hands playes well multiway, it's hard for me to tell you to start play more of these since I have no idea what hands you're playing now.

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think the number of suckouts goes down proportionately to the betting limit?? If i start to play just 2/4 instead of 1/2 is it going to get better? Same thing for 3/6 as opposed to 2/4?

[/ QUOTE ]
If we refer to suckouts as hands not having the odds to call but still does and outdraws you then yes, the number of suckouts will go down as you move up since the number of players making bad decisions will go down. I'm playing 5/10 and there's still many players making horrible calls and outsucks me. I'm happy about it since I gain money from their bad calls, you should be too.

I don't know what limit you should start playing, but 0.5/1 or 1/2 seems reasonable. By following my advice you will be able to move up pretty fast.

We've all been noobs, don't be offended by the sarcastic answers you've gotten, it happens all the time on this forum. Just keep posting, welcome.

[Bill Lumberg]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not exaggerating. [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

You have to start being honest with yourself if you want to get better. You have to admit you are not yet as good as you think you are. This will motivate you to get better.

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Totally change my approach? [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not exaggerating. [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

You have to start being honest with yourself if you want to get better. You have to admit you are not yet as good as you think you are. This will motivate you to get better.

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] Totally change my approach? [ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're using the quotes in a very original way.

[Baloosh]

But dudes... they just randomize the game to the point where the good player has no edge at all!

[krimson]

Fold all your hands pre-flop and nobody will suck out on you.

[MaxPower]

If you follow your new plan, you will be on the road to becoming a world class sucker. You need to understand that these suckouts are good things and that they are the whole reason why it is possible to win at poker.

FYI, I have been playing 15/30, 20/40 and 30/60 limit for the last year and the suckouts are still incredibly frequent. Nothing is going to change if you move up. The actually percentage of suckouts might be lower but they still happen constantly and you opponents will make you pay more when they do hit their hands.

Once you realize that suckouts are good, you might have a chance.

[felix83]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing smallstakes holdem' for a few years now. I am at the point where I can't afford the bankroll for 3/6 or more, so I primarily play 2/4 or 1/2.


[/ QUOTE ]

This line here is the most telling part of the post. You seem like a decent guy, but if you've been playing 1/2 and 2/4 for a few years and cannot yet afford to move up to 3/6, it's your game that's the problem, not anyone else's. Read SSHE and TOP and spend some time around here. Once you develop a better understanding of the game, you will look at things totally differently from how you do now, and like an earlier poster said, you'll be able to look back and laugh.

Good luck (not that you'll need it, as you'll learn).

-Adam

[BigBrother]

Get PokerTracker. You only THINK you are losing money on AA, KK. But the cold hard facts will consistently remind you otherwise.

[callmedonnie]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been playing smallstakes holdem' for a few years now.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you have been playing for a few years, you should be posting hands. You might not be improving at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Every time i have good cards i get sucked out. I am not exaggerating.

[/ QUOTE ]

Law of probability is constant. You will be sucked out a certain % of the time always. In the short run it may appear like 100%, but its not.

[ QUOTE ]
OK possible solutions: Totally change my approach?

For example always limp with big pairs and be prepared to fold any time there is action and i don't improve?

[/ QUOTE ]

Really bad idea, unless you really want to lose more money.

Get pokertracker. Read forums, post hands, and not just bad beats.

The key to low limit hold-em is knowing that you will lose many pots on suckouts, BUT, when you win pots, they are HUGE (in terms of BB's) because of the dead money in there. If you cannot beat bad players who make poor decisions, you won't beat players making good decisions. You make money by making less mistakes than the others who play against you. he who makes the fewest mistakes win. Also, without knowing you, You play too many hands.

LLL

Hi Sladgie-

Getting good hands run down is a fact of life in low limit. I have been consistently successful for the last few years after I took a hard look at the hands that I was losing with. I discovered that I was playing too many drawing hands and was too aggressive with middle pairs pre-flop. I also play hands like AK, AQ, and AJ soft occassionally. This way, I am not obligated to make a continuation bet if I miss the flop. In any event, I have reduced my negative variance a lot by analyzing my losses. Perhaps doing the same thing will help you. If you have Wolson's Turbo Hold Em, you can use the software to analyze your play without committing money. Finally, I have not noticed that big hands get run down less as you progress, at least from 1/2 to 4/8 limit. Since I don't play at levels higher than 4/8, I can't comment on them.

Good Luck,