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View Full Version : JTs may be spewing from SB

checkmate36
10-26-2005, 08:30 AM
PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

With so many players in I decided to raise and build the pot in case I hit a draw with what could possibly be the best hand. Probably not since BB 3-bet me but he is rated a taz. Thats the only read I have other than the table is very loose.

Flop: (20 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

With 5 opponents I didn't mind to keep building the pot with my draw that needs to dodge a spade it seems. Is this spew??
lautzutao
10-26-2005, 08:32 AM
Yes. You lucked out that you got 2 callers after BB raised you. I would have just called his raise.

I'd only 3-bet here if I had J/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif
ArturiusX
10-26-2005, 08:35 AM
Check the flop.
lautzutao
10-26-2005, 08:42 AM
Only way I check this flop is if I know BB is betting. Then I c/r. You want to check/call here with a straight to the nuts in a 20SB pot?

EDIT: BB 3-bet PF, nm.
10-26-2005, 08:42 AM
*grunch*

Pre-flop: I do not like the PFR even with so many players in as we will be way OOP on the flop and if we do not hit it hard we are easily dominated.

Flop: Double gutshot draw, a non-spade A or 9 is what we are looking for. Again, I do not like the OOP raise when the pre-flop raiser is directly to our left. Odds to call: yes. Advantage to raise: no. I totally disagree with your 3-bet and the following need to call the cap. Yes, I think it is spew.
xenthebrain
10-26-2005, 08:56 AM
Why not c/r BB ?
@bsolute_luck
10-26-2005, 09:19 AM
dear goodness you made this the most expensively weak draw hand i've seen in a long time. the pot is already big enough for your draw without need to make it SOOO huge any 2 cards are getting odds. if you were button that would be different maybe but in SB OOP the entire hand? and donkbetting this flop only gets you HU with a better hand.

if you win this: you are an uberluck box and should be run over by an elephant /images/graemlins/wink.gif
gopnik
10-26-2005, 09:25 AM
a much better play on the flop IMHO is to c/r and trap everybody for one more SB. You are in perfect position to do so. And I just call preflop.
10-26-2005, 09:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
a much better play on the flop IMHO is to c/r and trap everybody for one more SB. You are in perfect position to do so. And I just call preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Redd
10-26-2005, 09:53 AM
This link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3777660&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post3779130) may be of interest to you /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'd check too though. Does anybody value-cap the flop?
sean c
10-26-2005, 09:57 AM
OOP i don't like the pre flop raise. If you were the button a raise would be sweet.
10-26-2005, 10:41 AM
*grunch*
You're right to build the pot. You've got ~26% equity in the pot, even with just 4 people in you've got an edge on any bets going in. You want as many to stay for as much money as possible.

Preferably you want all 6 players to stay in. You would have a 26% equity and only be putting in 16% of the bets ( <font color="green"> good</font>)

You have perfect position to do this ( <font color="blue"> relative position </font> ).

Check the flop. Let the BB and PFR bet and face the field with one bet, then raise when it gets back to you. Sure BB might raise again but you've already got money from the rest of the field and they're much more likely to stay after already putting money in.

The way you played it, you allowed the BB to face the field with two bets and everyone may have folded. If that had happened you would have had 26% equity when putting in 50% of the bets ( <font color="red">bad </font> ).

<font color="purple"> SHORT VERSION: Check raise the flop for value. </font>
10-26-2005, 10:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
This link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3777660&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post3779130) may be of interest to you /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'd check too though. Does anybody value-cap the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice link and YES.
IMTheWalrus8
10-26-2005, 12:27 PM
I think you should check/call the flop.

Would like input on this line of thinking:

You have six outs to the nut straight, but since the flush card will come 1/3 of the time, we can proceed with the assumption that we have 4 outs (6 - 1/3x6). Does that make sense?

So basically we have a gutshot.
10-26-2005, 12:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]

You have six outs to the nut straight, but since the flush card will come 1/3 of the time, we can proceed with the assumption that we have 4 outs (6 - 1/3x6). Does that make sense?

So basically we have a gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your math is wrong. 8 outs to the top straight. 2 of those MIGHT give someone a flush. I'd call it 6 1/2 to 7 real outs.
SoftcoreRevolt
10-26-2005, 01:52 PM
We're on a draw to the nuts, or a hand behind only a flush. What hands are we concerned with drawing out on us? Two pair is going to stay in anyway. A flush will never go away. Everything else will lose to us.
TomBrooks
10-26-2005, 03:09 PM
PREFLOP:
Trapping the big field for another bet with a good multiway hand seem viable preflop even though your OOP.

FLOP:
Trying to knock out 1 card flush holders while your still drawing are conflicting concepts. Two spade holders won't fold anyway, and one spade holders have only a 1 in 23 chance of runner-runner spades, so let them stay in and take your chances. Just check-call the flop. If you can trap a big field with a checkraise though, that might be an idea.
10-26-2005, 03:20 PM
Preflop is pot building is okay as there's a bunch of people in the hand and you have equity, etc.

The flop however should be a check/call. Getting raised probably means someone has at least top pair and you don't want people to get bumped out on your draw.

The more people in the hand and the earlier the position you are to act, the more likely it is for someone to raise.
baronzeus
10-26-2005, 03:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Check the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
@bsolute_luck
10-26-2005, 03:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]
We're on a draw to the nuts, or a hand behind only a flush. What hands are we concerned with drawing out on us? Two pair is going to stay in anyway. A flush will never go away. Everything else will lose to us.

[/ QUOTE ]

so you like how the hand was played i guess? the reasoning you're using sounds like made hand reasoning. what hands am i concerned about drawing out on us? i'm simply hoping we suckout at this point. i'm confused- are we looking at the same hand or do you see that we don't have a straight yet.
@bsolute_luck
10-26-2005, 03:46 PM
could someone explain pot equity to me because i think i missed it. i really don't see how we have enough in this hand to raise preflop OOP when the point of raising this hand in a multiway field would be in CO or Button and this simply for the fact if we flop a good board for our hand we get value, but if we don't, we can check and get a free turn card.

i guess i'm not LAGtastic enough for these boards or something....
K-mac
10-26-2005, 04:17 PM
I am participating in Wookie's Challenge so bear with me.

Preflop:[/Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

I do not like the raise in this spot. i do not think it is for value, or even profitable (besides the fact that you are OOP). Calling the 3-bet is a bit of a spew to me.


[/ QUOTE ]

With so many players in I decided to raise and build the pot in case I hit a draw with what could possibly be the best hand. Probably not since BB 3-bet me but he is rated a taz. Thats the only read I have other than the table is very loose.

[/ QUOTE ]



Even though the BB may be a taz you are still OOP on him.


[/ QUOTE ]
[b]Flop: (20 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

With 5 opponents I didn't mind to keep building the pot with my draw that needs to dodge a spade it seems. Is this spew??

[/ QUOTE ]

as far as outs: i think that you have maybe 6 outs. The A /images/graemlins/spade.gif and the 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif arent clean because they put three to the flush on a board that is being raised and capped by the BB.
as far as pot odds: Over 20 to 1 on the flop bet i guess i would call.
Also i am not sure you can say it is a 3 bet on the flop for value because there are a lot of hands you are behind.
All in all i say it is a chip spew.

Where am i wrong, and what points am i missing?
Redd
10-26-2005, 04:33 PM
Just noticed the typo in my first reply. Does anyone value-cap preflop? If not, do you cap if one fewer limper had folded for two back to him pf?
detruncate
10-26-2005, 06:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Just noticed the typo in my first reply. Does anyone value-cap preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd think seriously about it. We're very unlikely to lose anyone for one more bet. Our relative position will still usually be good post flop given the pf 3-bet out of the BB -- it usually represents quite a lot of strength unless Villain is a LAG, and either way we can often make use of Villain post flop.

If capping is wrong, I can't see it being far wrong.
10-26-2005, 08:18 PM
You have just 6 clean outs, not 8 on the flop. And any spade on the turn or river will kill you. BB most probably will bet the flop for you, I just call after him. If the turn is safe, you can think about raising.

I do not raise PH.
Augster
10-26-2005, 09:09 PM
Preflop: I don't mind the raise. Most of these donks have already made their mistake by coming in with a trash. Make them pay double. The 3-bet by BB wasn't so good, but since you raised, I'd cap to get a TON in there. But that's just me.

Flop: Check-raise. You have a strong draw at this point, even though you "most likely" need to avoid a spade. If you know BB is going to bet, a check-raise will get the most in the pot more often than not. By betting into the BB, you aren't going to magically drive out a flush draw facing two cold.

The way you played it, I probably don't 3-bet it though. We are on a draw afterall.
checkmate36
10-26-2005, 11:01 PM
Thanks for all the thoughts on this hand. Hero slowed down on the turn and river when all I made was a busted draw.