Valuebetting at river, a few examples, feedback appreciated! [Archive]

View Full Version : Valuebetting at river, a few examples, feedback appreciated!

10-26-2005, 04:56 AM

Hey!
I've been playing for around a year, but mostly fixed and some tournaments and lowlimit nl. Never been to serious, but im always up for perfecting my play. I believe one of my greatest flaws is beeing to weak sometimes, not valuebetting enough in NL, because i always seem to end up at some maniac tables, and my fantasy runs loose :PP

Anyway here are a couple of examples, comment if you want!:)
HAND 1 :

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Hero ($268.25)
SB ($251.60)
BB ($78.75)
UTG ($257.50)
MP ($289)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP calls $2, Hero calls $2, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($7) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP bets $2, Hero raises to $4, BB calls $4, MP folds.

Turn: ($17) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8.

River: ($33) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $33

Results in white below: 
BB has 2h 9d (three of a kind, twos).
Hero has 9s Ts (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Hero wins $33. 

HAND 2 :

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

SB ($190)
BB ($182.75)
UTG ($137.21)
Hero ($170.62)
Button ($403.19)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises to $5, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, BB calls $6, UTG calls $3.

Flop: ($25) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $8, Hero raises to $23, BB calls $23, UTG folds.

Turn: ($79) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $50, BB calls $50.

River: ($179) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $179

Results in white below: 
BB has Th Jd (one pair, tens).
Hero has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $179. 

HAND 3:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

UTG ($200)
MP ($349.20)
CO ($59.90)
Hero ($305.72)
SB ($474.40)
BB ($233.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $2. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP calls $2, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls $2, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($10) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB bets $7, BB folds, MP folds, CO folds, Hero calls $7.

Turn: ($24) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $18, Hero raises to $36, SB calls $18.

River: ($96) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $30, SB calls $30.

Final Pot: $156

Results in white below: 
SB has 2s Qs (flush, king high).
Hero has Kd Qh (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: SB wins $156. 

Just a few hands from last nights 200$ nl session.

JaBlue

10-26-2005, 05:04 AM

Hand one: either smooth call the flop or put in a manly raise. Bet 15$ on the turn instead. Check behind on the river is fine.

Hand two: fine

Hand three: A case can be made for calling on the flop, especially if the opponent is overaggressive, but I prefer to raise here. On the turn raise to 50 or 60 and then probably check behind on the river.

jkkkk

10-26-2005, 05:08 AM

hand 1:

If you want to take the pot on the flop, don't min-raise, infact, for the time being I think you should count min-raise out of your entire repertoire. Raise to $9, Turn bet close to pot, river = fine.

hand 2:

wtf is with that pf raise? Make it $14. Aside from that, good.

hand 3:

Raising pf is probably better than limping here. Post-flop looks good aside from I'm probably raising to more like $50 on the turn.

10-26-2005, 05:10 AM

HAND 1
I'm not really sure what the point of the reraise was on the flop. But on the turn, you can afford to bet more. I don't mind the check behind on the river.

HAND 2
That reraise seems a little week preflop. Other that, it looks ok.

HAND 3
I probably raise on every street here...i raise the flop with my position, I raise the turn more than you did (i'm not a fan of min-raises), and I bet the river harder because he should not have been drawing to a flush :P Tough beat on this one heh.

10-26-2005, 05:12 AM

I just wanted to point out that I wasn't copying jkkkk's post, I was typing mine when he posted...our comments are just very similar :P

Trix

10-26-2005, 05:32 AM

Why all the minraises ?

fuzzbox

10-26-2005, 05:51 AM

Hand 1 - If you are going to raise the flop, make a proper raise. As it turns out, *you* were making a mistake, and you were lucky that villain didnt make you pay even more for your chance to hit a flush.
Turn - Bet close to the pot, not half pot. You just hit your card, you hardly want somebody to catch up, and you want to get paid.
River - check is good.

Hand 2 -
Make it 15 when you reraise. Give him bad odds to try to beat you.
Flop, raise harder, make it 30 - you want to get paid. If he reraises, you fold. It looks like he is drawing, many donks make a small bet when they are drawing.
Turn - good
River - good, no need to bet, he probably wont call with a worse hand.

Hand 3 - I probably raise preflop on the button with this hand, but whatever.
Flop - I raise, but calling isnt awful.
Turn - Minraise is awful, you are giving him 78:18 odds, which is more than 4:1. He has nice odds with any draw. Make a proper raise. There will be 60 in the pot after you call. So make it somewhere in the region of 60-80 to go, and thats good.
I often check this river, but value betting when he calls a real raise is not a bad play. When he calls the 18, its hard to figure out what he has.

In general, you bet and raise too little, thus you probably make the minimum on your strong hands, but lose the maximum on your losing hands, because your opponents are likely to bet harder than you.
You also give players good odds to draw, and if they are getting correct odds, then they are not making a mistake, and therefore you are not maximizing your gains.

10-26-2005, 05:59 AM

But its okay to check at flop on hand3 ? I know he was a very aggressive guy, and kinda wanted him to take control and bet out again on turn, for a nice reraise, where my obvious fault here beeing to weak a raise.

Concerning the weak raise preflop with KK, I usually raise about pot with those AA KK QQ hands, and with f.ex AKs i would probably double his pf bet.

I did alot of limping and weak raises in that session, because my table was really on tilt all the time, and i was trying to encourage some maniacs to do some plays, as they did numerous times during that night, which earned me quite a few bucks.

Malachii

10-26-2005, 06:10 AM

I like your minraise on Hand 1. Nice hand.

Hand 2 is good as long as you're folding to a checkraise or a strong river bet.

Hand 3 your minraise sucks on the turn. I'd probably check behind on the river, but I don't mind your value bet as long as you're folding to a checkraise.

Welcome to the forums.

Malachii

10-26-2005, 06:21 AM

Btw, I thought I'd elaborate a little bit on why I like the minraise in Hand 1 since I'm clearly in the minority here. I like the minraise because it disguises Hero's hand (if a random player minraised you here you'd be thinking trips, right?) and for this reason gives him a lot of folding equity against anything other than trips for a very good price. It also gives him some information about what's out there (the BB has either a flush draw or trips and is in slowplaying mode.) Does a real raise accomplish the same thing? Yes, but I don't think it accomplishes these things any better than a minraise, and it forces you to commit more of your stack at a disadvantage equity wise.

The one clear advantage that a legitimate raise has is that it makes the pot bigger so if you hit your subsequent bets can be bigger. Of course this is a double edged sword, if you miss on 4th street you'll be calling much bigger bets.

Comments?

10-26-2005, 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like the minraise because it disguises Hero's hand (if a random player minraised you here you'd be thinking trips, right?) and for this reason gives him a lot of folding equity against anything other than trips for a very good price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know anyone folding for $2 more, when the original pot is $7, and thats not even counting the additional money this street.

fuzzbox

10-26-2005, 07:10 AM

Negative. When you are raising this flop, your best result is for villain to fold. Minraise almost certainly doesnt get villain to fold. Your next best result is to hit your hand.

Otherwise you are value betting your flush DRAW. Since you are 4:1 against hitting your flush on the next card, you are not getting good value, as you are getting even money on a 4:1 shot.

If he folds, then we win the money for free, if he calls, then we can hit a flush and win.

As a rule though, i dont like drawing to flushes/straights on paired boards.

10-26-2005, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Otherwise you are value betting your flush DRAW. Since you are 4:1 against hitting your flush on the next card, you are not getting good value, as you are getting even money on a 4:1 shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not the point of the raise at all. First of all, the minraise is scary, and will likely allow you to see the turn AND river for 4$ total. Secondly, it gives you more information about your opponent. Thirdly, it disguises the flush draw a bit, so you get much better implied odds than a call would.

10-26-2005, 09:50 AM

I don't understand how any of you can call a minraise "scary" when it only amounts to half the pot.

scrapperdog

10-26-2005, 10:04 AM

Hand 2 is not a valuebet situation.

Hand 3 I make it 50 to go on turn. Then possibly check behind when the flush comes on river.

Hand 1 Well he did check to you. Usually I dont like a valuebet with flush on paired board but a check to you... you chased the flush and now that it got there and he checked I would probably value bet this.