TPTK against 2 opps

[Escotme]

6-max. 30 NL. Table in general has been loose aggressive.
Read on Villain1: semi-loose/aggressive. Seems fairly straight - bets decisively when he has a hand.
Read on Villain2: Semi-loose/passive. Had to reload shortly after I arrived. From the chat, I gather he was the whipping boy of the table. Has tightend up since then. Hit straight flush and doubled up.
Hero has been loose/aggressive and taken down more than his share of raised preflops with cont. bets. Haven't shown down a real hand yet.

** Treecreeper [Hold 'em] (0.15|0.30 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- Villain2 sitting in seat 1 with $29.10
- Hero sitting in seat 2 with $28.65
- st_jude sitting in seat 3 with $53.08
- dazzyboy sitting in seat 4 with $50.30
- s_immo sitting in seat 5 with $79.20
- Villain1 sitting in seat 6 with $11.89 [Dealer]

Villain2 posted the small blind - $0.15
Hero posted the big blind - $0.30

** Dealing card to Escotme: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif, A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
st_jude folded
dazzyboy folded
s_immo folded
Villain1 raised - $1.00
Villain2 called - $1.00
Hero called - $1.00

** Dealing the flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
Villain2 bet - $0.60
Hero ?

raise to pot

[Escotme]

I thought about that and chickened out, given that I had one more opponent behind me and that was the guy I was really worried about. With the draw-heavy board, my plan was to try to control the pot size and see a cheap turn. If it was a blank (no club, no K, J, or T) I'd turn up the aggression.

Here's what happened:
** Treecreeper [Hold 'em] (0.15|0.30 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money

- Villain2 sitting in seat 1 with $29.10
- Hero sitting in seat 2 with $28.65
- st_jude sitting in seat 3 with $53.08
- dazzyboy sitting in seat 4 with $50.30
- s_immo sitting in seat 5 with $79.20
- Villain1 sitting in seat 6 with $11.89 [Dealer]

Villain2 posted the small blind - $0.15
Hero posted the big blind - $0.30

** Dealing card to Escotme: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif , A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
st_jude folded
dazzyboy folded
s_immo folded
Villain1 raised - $1.00
Villain2 called - $1.00
Hero called - $1.00

** Dealing the flop: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif , Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
Villain2 bet - $0.60
Hero called - $0.60
Villain1 raised - $3.30
Villain2 called - $3.30
Hero ??

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
With the draw-heavy board, my plan was to try to control the pot size and see a cheap turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, with the draw heavy board, and you with the made hand, its more likely that your opponents are hoping for a cheap turn.

You've got to raise the flop. That is the way to control the pot size, and end the hand early. It's just so likely that the preflop raiser will raise to the pot here if you flat call. As things stand, villain 2 is probably drawing, but we have no idea what villain 1 has. I think now you have to flat call and pray for a blank turn.

[Escotme]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the draw-heavy board, my plan was to try to control the pot size and see a cheap turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Er, with the draw heavy board, and you with the made hand, its more likely that your opponents are hoping for a cheap turn.

You've got to raise the flop. That is the way to control the pot size, and end the hand early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is my thinking off? I didn't want to give drawing hands reverse implied odds. If I'd raised PS instead of villain1, villain1 would have called (best case)and villain2 (assuming he's on a draw) would have all the (implied) odds he needed. So the result would be an inflated pot with 2 opponents. That's not controlling the pot size in my book. If villain2 is on a super-draw, I'm actually behind and will not get him to fold - at least not on the flop.

I'm all about raising when I think I'm in the lead, especially to scare away draws. Here, I deemed the situation too marginal to be the aggressor as there were too many factors against me: I could already be beaten (AA, KK, QQ, TT and maybe 99, QTs), I'm OOP against a (respected) preflop bettor, and there are too many draw alternatives: any club (9), any 8 (3) and K (3) or J (3) for a total of 15 possible outs.

The hand started having the signs of people pushing their stacks and I wasn't sure I wanted to do that. If I call, it must be with the intention to bet the pot (around $11) on the turn if blank (leaving me pot committed) and fold to one otherwise. So am I a chicken? So far, I've invested $1.95 and calling/raising would mean that I'd have to be prepared to put most of my stack on the line.

Obviously, I'm posting this to take input/thoughts and improve my own game. I appreciate your input, especially if you would have played this differently. Maybe I've been burned too many times with TPTK. ...and then again, I might just be a whimpy chicken.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Is my thinking off? I didn't want to give drawing hands reverse implied odds. If I'd raised PS instead of villain1, villain1 would have called (best case)and villain2 (assuming he's on a draw) would have all the (implied) odds he needed. So the result would be an inflated pot with 2 opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also quite possible that villain1 will either reraise to protect a made hand, or fold a missed hand/lower pair.

You give draws best pot and implied odds when you let them draw for cheap, and then pay them off when they hit. Your solution to avoiding this seems to be to let them draw for cheap, and then presumably fold if a scare card comes. You lose value against draws playing this way. I understand you are worried about the preflop raiser, but if you don't raise this flop, you may as well fold IMO.

I certainly may not be correct in what I'm saying here. However, to me some of your justification for your play seems weak/tight

[Escotme]

Thanks for your input, Macquarie. I agree with you and normally play just the way you describe it. This situation spooked me and I did indeed fold. Here's the resolution:

** Dealing the flop: T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif, Q /images/graemlins/club.gif
Villain2 bet - $0.60
Hero called - $0.60
Villain1 raised - $3.30
Villain2 called - $3.30
Hero folded

** Dealing the turn: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Although it's not clear cut, I would call this a blank. If I'd still been in there, betting PS now would scare even a super-draw.
villain2 checked
villain1 checked

** Dealing the river: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
villain2 checked
Villain1 bet - $5.00
Villain2 called - $5.00
Villain1 shows: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Villain2 shows: J /images/graemlins/club.gif, T /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Villain1 wins $19.20 from the main pot

Exactly why you should have raised the flop. You would have gotten much more information about your opponents' hands.

[Escotme]

According to Pokulator, if I knew both their hands, I'm exactly a 50% "favorite" after the flop. (villan1 12%, villan2 37%) Given that, would any of you still be as agressive as earlier stated?

In retrospect, the "correct" play would probably have been to call the flop and pot the turn (Raising the flop, as sugggested, would have been best, of course.).

But I'm not sure I would play this differently if given the chance. For those of you out there with bigger cojones, my hat's off to you (so you can use it to do the decent thing and shield them from the public eye) but I think I prefer the lower variance and trying to find better spots to step it up. (I know you don't like "better spots", Acidca, but I don't mind them at all.)

Again, thanks for your input.

[Hattifnatt]

I fold here.

[Escotme]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahhh - finally I don't feel so lonely in the chicken club. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Do you fold for the same reasons I stated, or do you have any additional considerations?

[Hattifnatt]

I fold because I think I'm behind and if i'm not I guess i'm at least tied. If i'm not tied or behind I think with the draw-heavy board it's something like 30% chance my hand is still best on the river against two villians.

a $.60 bet to a $3 pot isnt a bet - its just a denial of a free card. You are probably ok to bet out here. Judging from his preflop raise and postflop weak swing, im thinking middle pair, maybe JJ.

[scrapperdog]

I am one of the tighest players on this board (some say weak as well) and I re-raise. He bet 60 cents and you have top pair top kicker. It looks like he is trying to get a cheap card for a draw, I bet pot. If a K or 8 comes I shut down, until then I am assuming I have best hand.

[Escotme]

[ QUOTE ]
I am one of the tighest players on this board (some say weak as well) and I re-raise. He bet 60 cents and you have top pair top kicker. It looks like he is trying to get a cheap card for a draw, I bet pot. If a K or 8 comes I shut down, until then I am assuming I have best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I take it you're talking about villain2. What about villain1, the actual preflop raiser??

How about a $2 raise against V2 and see if V1 is still intereted? Its not like you dont have a hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[scrapperdog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am one of the tighest players on this board (some say weak as well) and I re-raise. He bet 60 cents and you have top pair top kicker. It looks like he is trying to get a cheap card for a draw, I bet pot. If a K or 8 comes I shut down, until then I am assuming I have best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I take it you're talking about villain2. What about villain1, the actual preflop raiser??

[/ QUOTE ]

I still re-raise the 60 cent bet to a pot sized bet when it is my turn. AK or KQ would be my best guess to the villian 1. If he re-raises me all in I give him credit for somthing and fold, but until that happens I am assuming my hand is good. Until someone gives me a sign my TPTK is no good I assume it is good. So far you have a 60 cent bet into a 3$ pot, that is not a sign it is no good.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
According to Pokulator, if I knew both their hands, I'm exactly a 50% "favorite" after the flop. (villan1 12%, villan2 37%) Given that, would any of you still be as agressive as earlier stated?

In retrospect, the "correct" play would probably have been to call the flop and pot the turn (Raising the flop, as sugggested, would have been best, of course.).

[/ QUOTE ]

These are great hands for you to be against. The 50% win figure relies on both hands going to showdown - if the hand goes to showdown three way then you only put in a third of the money, and so a 50% win rate is more than fine. You put in one unit to win two units half the time. 50% in a three way pot means your hand is significantly the better than the other two players'.