Horrible play and an expensive reminder

[twang]

Here's a hand from last night. I made two extremely newbish mistakes (and they probably cost me the final table):

A Don't put a big stack on the line with TPTK
B Don't put your opponent on a hand - put him on a range of hands

Very basic stuff, but I bet people misplay hands like this all the time, hence me posting this.

There's another obvious problem here too, let's see if you can spot it.

Stacks and pots are rounded off. UTG seems average.
Pacific 15 K Guaranteed. Blinds 500/1000. Hero is BB with 28,000.

Hero is dealt AQh.

Preflop:
UTG (stacksize 21,500) raises to 2,000. Player in early middle (stacksize 3,000) goes all-in. Hero calls. UTG calls and reraises another 2,500. Hero calls.

Flop (pot 14,500): Tc 4d Jd
Hero checks, UTG bets 5,000. Hero calls.

Turn (pot 24,500): Qs
Hero checks, UTG bets 10,000. Hero calls.

River (pot 44,500) blank.
Hero checks, UTG bets 500 (all-in), Hero calls.

Edit: fixed messed up HH

[bdohaney]

Yeah, you probably should have laid AQs down pre-flop there. You have the UTG showing strength opening the pot, a raise (though it is from a short stack, so can't give it too much credit) and then UTG showing MORE strength by raising again. I have been in VERY similar situations in the past, and when you have a player showing as much strength as the player is UTG, you are probably against either AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ; AKs, AK, maybe a few lower pairs or AQs/AQ if he is a looser player.

[twang]

I'm not sure laying down AQs preflop here is good play. In my initial post I forgot to mention that this was close to the bubble and that the table was pretty rock-ish. Given UTGs weak preflop raise, the player all-in and the not too huge reraise from UTG, I think I should see the flop and take it from there.

The problem, as I see it, is my turn play. The most likely range of hands that villain has (given the table and his preflop actions) is AA-JJ and AK, all to which I am behind on the flop. AQ-AT is not entirely unlikely either and they are also pretty bad for me. Ok, the flop wasn't swell, but villain's bet laid me 4 to 1 to call to chase the gutshot straight.

IMO the turn play is horrible. The only hands I'm ahead of here is AJ,AT and some unlikely medium pair. Calling a half pot bet here is just terrible, but that bloody Q gave me tunnel vision... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Kirkrrr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure laying down AQs preflop here is good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

After the second raise from UTG, laying them down would've been the only play. What do you think he's re-raising with?

[ QUOTE ]
and the not too huge reraise from UTG

[/ QUOTE ]
That makes it even worse, not better. If he had a mediocre hand, he would've just pushed to shut you out and race against only one other player with your dead money in the middle. He didn't - he wants you in the hand. That's not good news for you.

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the flop wasn't swell, but villain's bet laid me 4 to 1 to call to chase the gutshot straight.


[/ QUOTE ]

The flop was horrible. You're calling out of position chasing a gutshot with 3 outs, if not 1...

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the turn play is horrible. The only hands I'm ahead of here is AJ,AT and some unlikely medium pair. Calling a half pot bet here is just terrible, but that bloody Q gave me tunnel vision...

[/ QUOTE ]

If you somehow managed to get to the turn (which you should not have), it was definitely push or fold. Calling off your entire stack a chunk at a time is pretty ugly.

I am not trying to sound harsh, but there's way more problems I see in this hand than just the two you mention. I hope you understand that.

Kirk

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
After the second raise from UTG, laying them down would've been the only play. What do you think he's re-raising with?

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot gives me a bit over 3 to 1. I'm still not sure how folding here could be the only play.

[ QUOTE ]
The flop was horrible. You're calling out of position chasing a gutshot with 3 outs, if not 1...

[/ QUOTE ]
I think putting both the player all-in and UTG on kings is monsters under the bed. I don't know if I have 4, 3, 2 or 1 out here. But, yeah, I agree that I should have discounted at least one king. If I did that the pot (though big) would not even remotely have justified calling the flop bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I am not trying to sound harsh, but there's way more problems I see in this hand than just the two you mention. I hope you understand that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Harsh away.

I would have folded as soon as the player went all in pre flop. Most of the time the UTG player will reraise if you call. He's min raised which at this stage of a tournament shows more strength than usual. Most likely AA-QQ.
Every call from then on was incorrect, but the main problem wasn't dumping this before the flop. AQ is a great hand at this point IF no one else has got in a raise early.

[DonHansen]

You make the first mistake when you just call the all-in from the middle player. Never just call an all-in when there's a live player behind you - raise significantly to shut him out in order to get the all-in raiser heads up. If the initial raiser call your raise you're up against a premium hand and have to procede with real care.

You make the second mistake when you call UTGs bet on the flop. The bet is suspicously on the low side and gives you great odds (almost 4-1) so it looks like he wants you to call. He probably hit the flop with TT or JJ or holds QQ, KK, AA or maybe AK. In every case you're drawing dead. So fold.

My two cents.


D.

[twang]

[ QUOTE ]
You make the first mistake when you just call the all-in from the middle player. Never just call an all-in when there's a live player behind you - raise significantly to shut him out in order to get the all-in raiser heads up. If the initial raiser call your raise you're up against a premium hand and have to procede with real care.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that was the other (third) obvious mistake I was referring to in my initial post. Man, I really trashed that hand.

[zambonidrivr]

your preflop action here is embarassing. learn how to play gap and you won't be posting these dumb comments.

[sunek]

Hi

It is a very interesting hand which is played really bad as you and the other posters points out. However learning from your own and others mistakes is what can make you a great player one day. I guess most players makes errors like that form time to time - I know I do /images/graemlins/smile.gif. So thank you for sharing this hand with us - it takes a lot more courage to tell about bad play than clever play, which make a hand like yours more interesting i my opinion.

Regards

sunek

[DonHansen]

Oh, come on! The guy is asking for advice - which is what the forums are for. No need to make him feel stupid.

Twang: The gap-concept was introduced by David Sklansky in "The Theory of Poker" and states that you need a better hand to call (or raise) an opened pot than you need to open a pot. In this situation with a raised and reraised pot your AQs is a borderline hand. Against strong players at a tight table it's almost a mandatory fold behind a raise and reraise - unless your postflop play is top notch.

The gap-concept is also well explained in Dan Harringtons brilliant book "Harrington On Hold'em vol I."


D.

[ansky451]

PF I dont mind the call, but I'd rather be in a heads up pot and push to isolate. On the flop... fold. Gutshot with the 2 diamonds up is baaaaad.

[twang]

Hey Don, no need to defend my case, but thanks anyway.

Actually, the main reason for posting that awful hand was that it was fine illustration of neglection of a couple of basic NL-concepts: the gamble with my big stack and TPTK on a drawy board + aggression; not looking at your opponents possible range of hands; not reraising the all-in. And while I'm at it: not applying the gap concept. I'm very well aware of what gap means, but I (obviously) didn't apply it in this hand.

Well, these boards are for learning and the intention of my post was to show off a butchered hand for (not exclusively my own) learning purposes.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure laying down AQs preflop here is good play.

The most likely range of hands that villain has (given the table and his preflop actions) is AA-JJ and AK, all to which I am behind on the flop. AQ-AT is not entirely unlikely either and they are also pretty bad for me. Ok, the flop wasn't swell, but villain's bet laid me 4 to 1 to call to chase the gutshot straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, you say that you are not sure laying down AQs there is a good idea, then you post what you think his range is, most of which have you dominated. On the flop, you are not ahead to a single one of his hands (JJ hits a set, QQ-AA have an overpair to the flop and have you drawing dead, AK has you drawing dead to 3 outs (the other kings). Add TT to his range, and you are behind yet another hand.

So let's say you have 3 outs at most, maybe even 2 or 1 possibly, you would need about 8 to 1 to call there. Even with 4 outs, you need about 6 to 1. You are not getting near the odds you need on the flop, which is a flop you should have never seen with your hand in the first place if you trust your reads a single bit.

[2005]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, the flop wasn't swell, but villain's bet laid me 4 to 1 to call to chase the gutshot straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think your A and Q are not viable outs, then you are not getting enough odds to call, especially if you don't think you can get away from the hand if you pick up one of your tainted outs. I think this is a fold on the flop(if you see it)

[JustPlayingSmart]

I think everything is fine up until the flop call. This is a terrible flop for you. The only card that is good on the turn is a king, though an ace is probably a decent card. On the turn, when the Q comes, you beat no legitimate hands. TT-AA, AK all have you beat badly.

If I played the hand I would probably repop it to about 6,000 preflop. Then if UTG came over the top I'd have a decision to make. You'd be getting 2-1 to call, so I'd probably call anyway, but I definitely wouldn't like it.

AQ is just a terrible hand against a pf raise in so many ways. I don't call raises with it and I don't even raise with it, unless I am in SB/BB and no one has shown strength pf.

Against a pf raise, suppose you call with with AQ. Flop is 9,Q,7 or K,Q,T or K,6,Q. UTG raises. What do you do? See what I mean? It's just a problem hand.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
AQ is just a terrible hand against a pf raise in so many ways. I don't call raises with it and I don't even raise with it, unless I am in SB/BB and no one has shown strength pf.

Against a pf raise, suppose you call with with AQ. Flop is 9,Q,7 or K,Q,T or K,6,Q. UTG raises. What do you do? See what I mean? It's just a problem hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, THAT'S some weak-tight thinking.
However, I agree with all who said that this hand was butchered entirely.

[Shammu]

In my opinion, the flop call is the worst thing I've seen. Either check-raise or check-fold( In my case fold). I also don't like the pre flop action, you were not invested in that hand and I don't know why you called that. I once layed down QQ from that spot after a raise and re-raise, I was sure one of them had AA or KK and I was right.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After the second raise from UTG, laying them down would've been the only play. What do you think he's re-raising with?

[/ QUOTE ]
The pot gives me a bit over 3 to 1. I'm still not sure how folding here could be the only play.

[/ QUOTE ]

A decent player will give you 3 to 1 in this spot knowing he's giving you 3 to 1. He isn't trying to isolate the short stack; he's trying to draw you in. Danger, Will Robinson!
What kind of range does an UTG raiser and re-raiser have? At his LOOSEST it's probably TT-AA, AK. (MAYBE AQs. I think it's more likely QQ-AA and AK, but I bet even AK pushes to isolate.) This is probably AA or KK if your opponent is of any skill whatsoever.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop (pot 14,500): Tc 4d Jd
Hero checks, UTG bets 5,000. Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

This call is atrocious. You are 11 to 1 to catch a gutshot on the next card (and one of your outs makes a flush, so you're about 14 to 1 to catch the winner clean) and you will surely be facing another bet if you don't. In addition, there is not a single hand in the AA-TT, AK range that you are beating right now.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn (pot 24,500): Qs
Hero checks, UTG bets 10,000. Hero calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no WAY your hand is good here! Every possible holding of villain beats you, and you're only drawing live if he has AA and you can catch one of the last two queens.

All the information was available to you every step of the way to tell you you were badly beaten, and you ignored it all and let your hand improve into a second-best hand you couldn't fold.

I'm sure you've gotten hammered enough already for this one but I wanted to articulate why I felt the way I did about the hand.

[DonHansen]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Don, no need to defend my case, but thanks anyway.



[/ QUOTE ]

I just think badmouthing other players - at the table or in the forums - is a sad approach. Be friendly and be nice. Being online doesn’t give anyone a free card to be rude, and mouthing off to bad beaters is totally uncalled for. The riverplayer is your best friend. For every time he hit’s his 4-outer there’s 10.5 times he doesn’t - chips in your pot. So when your set of cowboys is beaten by an inside straight, just tip your hat and say “nice hand”. Those who catch the irony are the ones you should worry about.


D.

[fnord_too]

Pf, fine.

Lay this down on the flop. At best you have 10 outs, but diamonds are slightly tainted, and your queens and aces are very tainted. I think you have call pf getting those odds, but you absolutely have to drop this on the flop. His line is very suggestive of an overpair, which means you could be drawing to two outs (which have redraws). This is a protected pot by the AI guy, he can beat TP here and only has 10K behind so you don't have any real implied odds. There is just no reason to put another chip in post flop.